How does Jow Forums feel about first nation warrior cultures?
Seminole - WARRIOR CULTURES
Samuel Kelly
Other urls found in this thread:
en.wikipedia.org
desuarchive.org
desuarchive.org
desuarchive.org
news.nationalgeographic.com
desuarchive.org
desuarchive.org
desuarchive.org
desuarchive.org
youtube.com
twitter.com
Christian Powell
pretty gay. there's a reason we wiped out most of the savages and their culture, because it's fucking retarded.
Mason King
A warrior culture that is still alive and kicking.
Ever since the days of old
Men would search for wealth untold
They'd dig for silver and for gold
And leave the empty holes
And way down south in the Everglades
Where the black water rolls and the saw grass waves
The eagles fly and the otters play
In the land of the Seminole
Sebastian Richardson
Floridaman here. Reminder that the Seminole tribe only formed in the 18th Century as a mix of multiple tribes from Alabama and Georgia as well as Florida that were forced down into Florida. Seminoles are not a legitimate tribe and are basically feathered casino Jews.
Ayden Ramirez
Fpbp
Camden Taylor
this
torture was their favorite past time
see mexicans for the extrapolation of this
Jaxon Ward
>first nation
You mean savages who genocided each other and took kids as sex slaves. They're not a nation, nor the first.
Nathaniel Jones
BLOW BLOW SEMINOLE WIND BLOW LIKE YA NEVA GONNA BLOW AGAIN
Brayden Russell
I got more respect for the Apache than I do for the keyboard commandos here.
Ryan Long
A lot of native american groups only formed post-contact: If you read accounts from Spanish explorers they note tons of towns and ven some cities as they traveled up from Mexico the first time around what's now the US, and just years later passing through the same locations everything was gone and in ruin due to chaos and people abandoning things due to dieases.
Plains Indians literally didn't exist before europeans showed up because prior to that they were living in actual sedentary communities, like pic related. A few groups even basically got to civilization levels of complexity: The Mississippians for example had some sites that had tens of thousands of ihanbitants and were basically ciities, such as Cahokia, and had pretty complex social systems and were almost forming actual political states. This is also why and and and are dumb: They were basically at and in may cases beyond the same degree of complexity most indo-european and Scandinavian groups were at.
And then further south you had Mesoamerican and Andean cultures which were near-universally urban states that were basically Iron age to classical antiquity levels of complexity in most regards, who had formal armies and military command structures.
Cameron Miller
in fact dumping some recreations
Evan Jackson
Wonder if anyone has considered rebuilding homages to these cities.
David Evans
some tribes have small recreations i.e a few longhouses and whatnot but nothing super large scale afaik
Zachary Walker
Also for those wanting to learn more I suggest the book 1491: New Revelations of the Americas Before Columbus; it's not US native american focused butt rather goes all around the americas noting how public education has almost universally not kept up with reseach and how even the places that weren't hyper-complex urban civilizations like in Mesooamerica and the Andes (but those two as well: I said before that they were basically iroon age to classical antiquity level, which is accurate, but most people think of them as barely qualifying as civilizatitons; Mesoamerica is my specialty so I can clarify on this if people want) were way more complex then most people realize
Though the sequel 1493: Uncovering the New World Columbus Created probably focuses more on these settlements in particular
Not sure what you mean by homages exactly, but almost all of them are under modern infanstrucre and are basically lost to time. They were all over the place across the country but since the building materials is wood and earthenworks they pretty quickly just got overttaken by nature and got built over by settlers
Brandon Collins
Brayden Nelson
Jayden Brown
David Sanchez
Gavin Jackson
So they were pre-Caeser Gaul tier?
Ayden Gomez
Indians mostly died from diseases. They were in general better warriors and we use their tactics today and no longer use any of the old European colonizer tactics. The French and Indian war was won by the side with more Indians, not the side with more or less tea sipping faggot britbongs or wine sipping Frenchmen.
Alexander Gray
>1491: New Revelations of the Americas Before Columbus
Just finished that, actually. Was pretty interesting, I had heard bits and pieces about various archaeological sites over the years but I had no idea the populations were so high.
Jackson Perry
did not expect to find a quality thread about natives on 4chin, especially not Jow Forums so thx user
Logan Lewis
another ofCahokia by the same artist as , and such (steven patriicia), though I think from an earlier stage of the site withoutt as much expansion
With the caveat that that's not a period of history I know a ton about, yes, that's about my understanding of a lot of north american native groups
If you mean Mesoamerican or Andean ones like the Aztec, Inca, etc, then no, that's way underselling them. The Aztec capital for example was 4x the size of paris that the time of contact with europeans, wiith a comparable population; and the city was also built outt of artifiical islands in the middle of a lake and it and other cities around the lake basin all had venice-like canals and aquaducts, diikes, and causeways cutting across the lakes and from city to city.
People mistake the Aztecs for being "stone age" but in pretty much every regard other then watercraft and naval technology, which they were really primitive with; they were either comparable to Bronze Age (Metallurgy, architecture, economics, and military complexity here) , Iron Age/Classical (Political and adminstrative complexity, the arts, trades, and intellectualism) or outright on par with or beyond contemporary European nations (city-sizes, sanitation and public health, hydraulics, and hortiicultural knowledge). Worth noting the Aztec, Maya, and Inca are far from the only complex latin american groups as well: Mesoamerica had civilization for around 3000 years prior too european contactt, and the Andes had it for around 2000, so there's tens of other cultures and hundreds of specific political states across those spans of time: Notable Mesoamerican ones on top of the Aztec and Maya are the Olmec, Zapotec, Epi-Olmec, Classic Veracruz, Teotihuacan, Toltec, Mixtec, Totonac, Huasttecs, Otomi, Purepecha, and non-Aztec Nahuas; and for the Andes on top of the Inca there are the Chavin, Paracas, Nazca, Moche, Wari, Tiwanku, Sican, Chimu; and thr's still a ton for both i'm omittings
Adam Torres
What I don't understand about some of these recreations is the mounds structures. en.wikipedia.org
Even modern-ish versions of stuff like that collapse very quickly.
Alexander Young
1491 talks some about the construction. IIRC they were built of clay, which tends to swell and shrink a lot with moisture, but they had alternating skins of sand and clay over them. The sand layers were too coarse to allow moisture to wick out via capillary action, and the clay layers kept water from evaporating, so they kept a very consistent moisture level and lasted a long time.
Owen Green
Sorry for crappy pic
Dominic Garcia
All that time, and they never dreamed of domesticating all of the many Buffalo?
Dreamed of a cart or a wheel?
Dreamed of a plow and a harness?
Never dreamed of a sail to harness the wind?
All those thousands of years and they never once picked a piece of metal out of the ground and dreamed of a sword, or a forge?
Huh.
Noble savages.
Ayden Campbell
Who practiced seasonal warfare and human sacrifice on a massive scale. Fuck 'em.
Lucas Johnson
What in the fuck is that image
Parker Wood
My operator dream I wake up from, every morning and realize the happening isn't happening.
Hudson Morris
The wetdreams of LARPing morons.
Josiah Bell
Maybe you should pay, attention in English class.
Jordan Butler
Also since this is Jow Forums after all, here's a series of posts of mine talking about Aztec warfare: desuarchive.org
Goes into
>Weapons
>Armor
>Formations and tactics
>Rank structure and miilitary organization
>Army sizes
>Overall approaches to expansionism
>Unique aspects of Mesoamerican warfare such as emphasizing the collection of captives and flower wars
pic related also shows parts of their captiial city, namely Montezuma II's palace, since I mentioned it
Not sure if you guys are talking about North Native Americans or Mesoamericans here
>Buffalo
Not all animals can be domesticated easily, Buffalo aren't well suited to it, I recall reading about it once, but I admittedly don't remember much about it. As far as the Mesoamericans, there weren't any buffalo in thousands of miles.
>Plow/harness
Had no beasts of burden
>Carts and wheels
Mesoamericans used wheels for pottery production, on siege towers, and on toys, but not for transportation, since, again, no beasts of burden and much of the region is either dense jungles or mountaious valleys. You could argue wheel barrows, but wheel barrows weren't invented in Eurasiia till around 0ad eittther.
>Sail
To my knowledge neither developed the sail, which is part of why I stated thatt watercraft and naval ttechnology was the one area Mesoamericans really were stone age tier. That being said, tthat's not to say they didn'tt do extensive naval trading or water travel: The Maya had coastal trade networks and also used rivers that fed inland from the coasts to move goods around.
1/2
Leo Bennett
>Not sure if you guys are talking about North Native Americans or Mesoamericans here
Both. If you get scalped or tortured while your wife has your unborn son ripped out of her belly while your toddlers get smashed against trees and you get your lips cut after hot coals have been shoved in your mouth and your balls got cut off, you're just as dead as if an Aztec priest did the deed. Though they did bring a Nazi-style industrial scale to the deed.
Look at modern tribal societies -- from AfPak to Detroit -- and tell me if they are anything to celebrate.
Thomas Ward
cont; pic related is the wheeled toys
>Metal
North native americans acttually had tons of sources of natural copper and cold worked copper: Litterally arguably the oldest example of mettal working we have globally comes from cold worked copper in North Amriica. As far as Mesoamerica, they had full out gold, silver, copper, and tin and aresenical bronze metallurgy, and used it extensively, just not for weapons and tools: they viewd metal as as a ceremonial, not a utultiarian material, and much of ttheir alloys were develops to achieve certain visual or auditory property rather then mechanical ones. You also need to consider that even the Spanish mostly abandoned their metal armor in favor of what was a native equivalent to gambeson due to the hot and humid cliimate, so if even the Spanish gave it up, why would the region develop it iin the first place? And without metal armor, tther's not as much of a reason to bother wiith metal weapons, since obsidian is already super fuckiing sharp, iitt's issue is durability.
I go into both their watercraft usage and Metallurgy here in more detail, by the way: desuarchive.org
>human sacrifice on a mass scale/brutality
Not going to comment on North Native americans here, I don't know enough about their cultural practices or warfare to comment, but I will note I have a hard time believing that their battles were any more brutal then what you saw anywhere else or they practiced huma sacrifice more then any other ancient or tribal society
As far as Mesoamericans, I already made a huge, thread where I dumped like 20 2000 character posts about sacrifice practices and the cultural, cosmological and philosophical factors behind it in it here: desuarchive.org
Gabriel Anderson
image showing a mesoamerica siege tower
Also summarize the points about sacrifice: .while human sacrifice was universally important tin all Mesoamerican religions by all Mesoameriican civilizations, it wasn't actually practiced at mass scales. Physical offerings and non-fatal blood lettting was way more common, with outright human sacrifice being relatively rarer. The only group to actually practice mass scale human sacrifices were the Mexica of the Aztec capital and they only mass-sacrificed captured enemy soldiers.
To give some actual educated estimates, I'd guess most cities in the region would sacrifice a few tens of people annually, with the Mexica in particular sacrificing a few hundred, maybe 1000 to 2000, and for both captured enemy soldiers would be the bulk of sacrifices: Recent excavations of the primary site sacrifice victim's skulls were stored indicates up ttoo 75% of all sariifices were enemy soldiers, for instance.
So, yeah, it's a pretty decent amount of people, but way less then you probably think, especially considering that that was tthe only form of religuous violence and conflict in tthe region, and in Eurasia you had tons of wars, conflicts, and persecutions based on different jeuedochristian faiths: The Spanish inquisittion alone probably prosecuted (admittedly not executed, though) more people then were sacrificed across every city in the Aztec empire across the empir's entire 100~ year history, and that's with most of them being enemy soldiers.
Again, if you want clarifiication on any of thiis, read my posts in that /his/ thread.
Samuel Myers
An example of a cold-forged/worked copper arttifactt the Missispians made
Jonathan Williams
And I have tons of examples of Mesoamerican metallurgy. Here's an example that shows how finely detailed they could get
Anyways thinking of re-dumping those posts on Aztec warfare in this thread with some additions, rather tthen leaving it at just linking to the archive of it, if anybody is interested let me know
Christian Kelly
Fort ancient site defensive works.
Caleb Lewis
>not wanting to live in a comfy Mississippian town
John Thompson
No, they were on the line with bronze-age peoples
Pic related is a reconstruction of a gaulish stone wall
Gavin Bell
Cherokees wee pretty tough bastards, controlling the Midwest with only a couple thousand tribals at the peak. That said natives were a bunch of Savage fuckers and deserved it.
Jace Perry
they lost
Evan Gonzalez
>we use their tactics today
Which is what exactly? Strategic bombing? Because that's an old european colonizer tactics.
Jack Stewart
I don't have high opinions of the Natives and I do find myself referring to many groups as Savages based on practices alone and I hold very little empathy for them regarding colonization and European domination of the Americas. That said I appreciate someone on Jow Forums actually dumping information and teaching people about things they know little about. Its all to common to have people form opinions based on very little and then hold them steadfast without even the briefest consideration that their views are wrong. Keep doing what you're doing user and where did you study?
Aaron Foster
>better warriors
>Colonizer defeats 10 000 aztec warrior with 500 conquistadors and a few tlxacalans
What native tactics do we actually even use? Divide & conquer = Colonizers
Biological warfare = Colonizers
All of the tactics that the natives use existed before them.
Brody Morgan
Learn geography
Aaron Jones
"Same degree of complexity as Europeans"
Post a single piece of engineering tech the feather niggers had that was superior to what could be found in Spain in 1492.
You must kys and livestream if unable.
Connor Hernandez
Ah yes, like classic Indian tactics of decapitation strikes with steal bombers or deep penetrations with armored divisions.
Nolan Cook
>deep penetrations with armored divisions.
I really wish I had a picture of a guy in conquistador armor banging a native to reply to that.
Easton Sullivan
Sure, I just woke up and I'll dump info in the regards they (The Aztec and other Mesoamericans, not native north americans) were on par or or more complex then Europeans now ; I suggest pay attention here as well, though I'm going to reply to your post individually later
In terms of population sizes, Mesoamerican cities during the classic (200AD to 800AD) and Postclassic (800AD to 1521, arguably 1697AD) dwarfed bronze age urban centers in size, generally matching iron age and medieval cities, and often exceeded them as as well, pic related: The average Mesoamerican city had a population of around 15,000, potentially more depending on if that figure includes the surrounding suburbs and not just the urban core (I'm not sure which that figure is). Larger cities hit 30k to 80k (again, depending on if you include the suburbs or not), and then the truly massive ones hit 100k to 250k, which giant even by 16th century european standards.
To clarify a bit, Mesoamerican cities generally did not have a clear delineation between where their cities ended and startered: There would be a very dense, urban core with ceremonial structures such as temples and public plazas, marketplaces, and palaces and noble homes, and then the density of structures would gradually traiil off radially with suburbs and farmland for miiles. The city of Texcoco, for example, had a population of around 30,000 people in it's urban core, but if you include the surrounding suburbs, it shoots up to 60,000; and even further if you include entire it's boundaries as a city-state
The two largest cities in Mesoamerican history tot our knowledge where Teotihuacan and Tenochtitlan. Teotihuacan existed from around 200BC to 700AD as a functional city, but was stll somewhat inhabited after it was abandoned. At it's height, it had a population of 150,000 people, with its urban core being around 22 square miles, and it's suburbs stretching oveer 60 square kilometers, pic related
Luis Baker
>large population cities = discrete engineering tech
So you can't. How are you going to off yourself? Quit taking your antiretrovirals and let the GRIDS finish you off?
Chase Smith
Whoops, accidentally tried using two images at once, here's the first image I was going to post
Cont:
Tenochtitlan, the Aztec captial, had a population between 200,000 and 250,000 as of the time of contact with Europeans, and covered 5.2 square miles or 1500 hectacres, and unlike most Mesoamerican cities, as it was built on an island and expanded with artificial islands, had a clear end-stopping point:, with no gradual falloff: So all 200,000 people existed in a 5.2 square mile area
Both Tenochtitlan and Teotihuacan would have been in the top 10 to top 5 largest cities in the world during their height. Other Mesoamerican citties hitting very high population numbers include the Maya city of El Mirador, which had it's height in 300 BC, which had a populaton of around 120,000, Cholula, which is the longest continuously inhabited city in the Americas and at it's height had a population of 100,000,, and the city of Angamuco was recently discovered to have hit 100k as well thanks to recentt LIDAR scanning
Speaking of LIDAR scanning, also this year it was discovered around the city of Tikal and other nearby urban centers hav shown that rather then a gradual drop off n urban density, the entire area surrounding the urban cores was covered in aa solid expanse of suburbs, farmland, andd smaller mini-urban cores, with basically all that's jungle now being cleared active infrastructure: news.nationalgeographic.com
In total, at the time of contact with europans, Mesoamerica in total had a population of around 25 million people (again, could be much higher based on recent research), which is a comparable population density to an equivalently sized part of Europe.
2/?
Parker Thompson
cont:
And in case anybody is mistaken in assuming that these cities were primitive in construction like the art of Mississippian cities I posted, here is a quote by Cortes describing the city of Tlaxcala
>The city is indeed so great and marvellous that though I abstain from describing many things about it, yet the little that I shall recount is, I think, almost incredible. It is much larger than Granada and much better fortified. Its houses are as fine and its inhabitants far more numerous than those of Granada when that city was captured. Its provisions and food are likewise very superior... There are gold, silver and precious stones, and jewellers' shops selling other ornaments made of feathers, as well arranged as in any market in the world. There is earthenware of many kinds and excellent quality, as fine as any in Spain. Wood, charcoal, medicinal and sweet smelling herbs are sold in large quantities. There are booths for washing your hair and barbers to shave you: there are also public baths. Finally, good order and an efficient police system are maintained among them, and they behave as people of sense and reason
I do not have good population numbers for Tlaxcala,but based on what I know of it I would expect a population of between 30,000 and 60,000. So large, but not giant. Furthermore, Tlaxcala had been victims of constant Aztec blockades and sieges for years, and Tlaxcala itself had been wakened and starved for resources, which is why they allied with the Spanish, so this is a Tlaxcala on the brink of collapse.
3/?
I never claimed they had discrete engineering abilities rivaling 16th century Europe, though. In fact based on the post in question the statement you are responding to seems to be when I was comparing the Misssipsians to INDO-europeans, such as Germanic groups like the gauls and goths or Scandinavian groups
In any case keep reading I will be talking about Mesoameriican hydroengineering shortly
Alexander Martin
>yfw you live in a small town in the pacific northwest in the winter and suddenly at night you hear chanting and see these guys coming out of the forest towards your camp
Charles Hill
t. butthurt nativenigger
should have wiped the last of you retards out
Dylan Robinson
somebody's mad he's getting btfo
Landon Ward
These posts that give me some hope that this place is not yet completely taken over by meme spouting retards. Keep it up.
Thomas Howard
Kek
Liam Bailey
I will, just trying to double check my info before I post stuff
Jack Anderson
these guys had rad as fuck armorr
Samuel Evans
Jonathan Lee
bump. Where'd you go anthropology/archaeology bro?
Benjamin Ross
Sorry, got busy, gonna try to resume in a bit
Evan Foster
They ded lol
Carson Jackson
Apologies for stopping my posts 12 hours ago, I got really busy with IRL stuff and was having trouble double checking my info and expanding on what I already had in mind to post to the extent I wants to Should pick up the pace from here
Cont:
I have tons of other excerpts like this of similar descriptions, but I will wait to post those to respond to ; and so I can move onto the other areas Mesoamericans, the Aztec in particular, were on par with or ahead of their European contemporaries at the time of contact. Bottom line, Mesoamerican cities were not just pyramids and huts, but were actual urban centers with palaces, plazas, marketplaces, streets, etc. As can be seen in , however, architecturally their structures were less complex then their medieval counterparts, being similar to Bronze and Iron age buildings in terms of design and construction (though, notably, thee Maya did construct the world's first true suspension bridge and built high-rise structures with arches)
I'll potentially touch more on that later, but speaking of engineering, in terms of waterworks, hydraulics, and hydroengineeeriing was another area I would argue they at last matched contemporary Europe at.
Literally the site in the region's history that displays urbanization and complex social stratification (though not nearly as much so as later cities, it was probably more like the Mississippian sites I posted, albeit with stone monuments as well), the Olmec site of san lorenzo (which existed from 1400 to 900 BC,) has complex hydraulics: It had an aqueduct composed of of stone pieces carved with iconography of deiities and other figures that compiled water from various sources and pooled it into a stone basin into the city. It, along with other Olmec sites, were located in swampy jungles, unlike other cradle civilizations built around rivers, and the aqueduct system may have also used nearby lagoons as drainage sites.
4/?
Juan Jackson
Cont:
The San Lorenzo aquaduct (there was also another under it's palace, pic related), is just one example: elsewhere in Olmec period/region ( La Venta, which rose in around 900 BC, for instance had 4 aqueducts among flooding prevention systems) to the remainder of the preclassic when urban cities, writing, and state governments were popping up all over (900 BC to 200 BC or so), you saw water management systems all over: The lowlands, such as in the gulf coast in Olmec territory and in the Yucatan in Maya territory, were dense jungles and swamps with intense seasonal changes, prone to flooding during wet seasons,which required redirection to avoid this, but a lack of rainfall and rivers in dry seasons, but the fact the Yucatan is located on a limestone plain meant there was a lack of common ground fresh water sources that aren't too deep to access, meaning rainfall HAD to be the primary source of water, and poor soil, corrosive humidity, and sanitation concerns in such a tropical environment further complicate things The amount of water management systems required to support complex civilization in these places is astounding, to the point where a loot of archaeologists in the past have been baffled by the fact it existed there at all and discounted and downplayed the success and complexity of said cultures since anything greater was thought to be impossible to function in such an environment.
It is seriously impossible to overstate the ubiquity of aqueducts, rainfall collection systems, drainage systems, reservoirs, etc, in lowland Mesoamerican sites, especially as you move into the classical pored in 200 AD, which is when urban state societies had become the norm in Mesoamerica. Part of the reason I've taken so long to resume posting iis the sheer amount of stuff to cover and me being overwhelmed by trying to decide what I should mention or not, so please do not take what I am going to say as exhaustive, it is far from it.
5/?
Cameron Davis
We had hard metals, which is something they didn't figure out ever. If the Europeans weren't all anemic diseased poorfags when they got off the boats they would have faired better.
Colton Hughes
>WE WUZ AQUEDUCTS N SHIIET ;_;
Call me when they actually invented anything of real note and didn't get conquered utterly.
Caleb Cook
Oh shit I somehow missed this post
I'm not going too get super into it right now since i'm in the middle of doing the posts explaining to the other user the ways Mesoamericans rivaled Europeans in complexity, but you are full of shit and have no idea what you are talking about.
There weren't "a few" Tlaxcalans, the final siege on the Aztec captial had around 20,000 Tlaxcalans and 200,000 native soldiers in total: The Spanish were quitte litterally less then 1% of their own fighting force, and even this army had a tough time taking the capttial, which had litterally half of it's inhabitants dying of smallpox and starvation by tthis point. Even after the capital fell, it took decades of fighting to conquer the rest of the region despite it continuing to suffer from major population losses (it hit black death levels within 10 years), and with native troops doing the vast majority of the fighting and logistics, and even then they never fully pacified many areas. And for the most part, Cortes got allies not as a result of him brilliantly manipulating native groups, but the native states manipulating him (multiple cityies tricked him into helping the raid rival cities, for instance_ and exploiting the tensions being set off to their own geopolitical ends.
I'll get back to responding to you in more detail, but bottom line, Cortes's expedition and the Spanish conquest of Mesoamerica as a whole was a 1 in a million shot and easily could have failed, as it was entirely dependent on an extremely specific set of conditions and events to have occurred, and even a slight deviation from what happened historically would have resulted in neither happening and potentially the widespread colonization of the americas never happening since it occurred as a result of Spain seeing how lucrative it could be following Cortes's success and then other European nations following suite.
They had bronze metallurgy.
Camden Ramirez
>glorifying savage murderers who slaughtered good christian folk who were fleeing religious persecution
cringe and bluepilled
Easton Morales
ITT: user posts interesting information about native people and their cultures while butthurt neckbeards get pissed and attempt to derail the thread
Joseph Peterson
Then I guess the Egyptians, Mesopotamians, and Greeks didn't ither considering the Mesoamericans invented almost all the same shit as they did. iif you can come up with 10 things they did the Mesoaameriicans didn't i'll punch a hole in my wall and post pics.
>get conquered utterly.
They didn't, see and wait till I finish the other posts and I can clarify further. Almost all of the actual fighting and logiistical work of the conquest was being done by native states themselves, it was more an extension and contiatuon of existing mesoamerican geopolitics and militarism, all the Spanish pretty much did was show up, set off existing tensions, and then were able to reap spoils in the aftermath due to the native geopoitical systems nott givinng a fuck about direct imperial governance and dieases killing everybody so the Spanish didn't have any actual opposition to face once it was all said and done
The specific actions of Cortes and others was almost entirely inconsequential to their success, at no point where they not entirely dependent on dumb luck and native states
I realize that this probably sounds like bullshit, but it's not: I cannot overstate how utterly contrived the fact that Spain came out on top was and how reliant on factors out of their control that success was. If you are impatient and can't wait for me to finish my other series of posts first, then you can read my summary of the conquest in my overall summery of mesoamerican history here: desuarchive.org
Evan Wright
I mean, honestly you could say the same thing about most Europeans of the same era doing little more mustering a pale imitation of Roman glory.
Leo Jackson
Yeah, but the Europeans became even greater than the Romans can ever dream of.
Camden Ramirez
>thinking that finding this shit fascinating and respecting the achievements of their civilizations is the same as glorifying them.
Honestly, it's like you all think if you trash talk a bunch of dead indians enough a girl will finally like you. Shit's interesting, just relax and learn something.
Easton Bell
so just like any other thread
Nicholas Jackson
>bronze metallurgy
I said hard, not "vaguely better than stone because of weight and malleability but in ridiculously short supply."
Relax, we're on Jow Forums. I specifically come here to be an obtuse asshole to random strangers because all my real conversations are with intelligent people. At some point in an argument every Historian has wanted to jump up and say "You're wrong faggot, blow me." Seems like you're doing this all backwards to me out of boredom.
Nicholas Rogers
>but in ridiculously short supply
Copper was actually extremely common in the Americas relativee to the old world: The great lakes region has tons of native copper and some of the world's oldest copper artifacts are from there, I mentioned this before in ; it had outright been positd thaat th lack of metallurgy in north ameriica is a result of the sheer amount of cold workable native copper they had avalable
As far as Mesoamerica, I am actually unsure about the quality of easily accessible copper they had, despite that being the area i'm knowledgeable in. Anyways, Metallurgy is a pretty recent thing in the region, it only first shows up in around 600AD via spread from south america, probably via ocean going traders from ecuador contacting west mexican groups, but maybe coming up via central america; and at this stage it was just soft metals like gold, silver, copper, etc; bronze metallurgy only becomes a thing a mere 400-200 years prior to european contact. They definitely had complex metallurgical techniques and skill with it. This is something I've gone into detail before here: desuarchive.org
>I specifically come here to be an obtuse asshole to random strangers because all my real conversations are with intelligent people.
Well, I would hope that you can appreciate that I actually put good faith effort into my posts (I have been up for 24 hours straight making posts in this thread and double checking my sources to do so) and i know what i'm talking about for the subject matter
Jeremiah Kelly
>larpers union
Henry Russell
When you have a shitty Florida education and watch so much clickbait you're legitimately scared of a bunch of suburban college faggots with white guilt.
Gabriel Bell
Seminole were commie anglophilic niggerloving red spics and Ol Hickory done good
Christian Barnes
Brody Clark
already addressed m8, see
Angel Rogers
cont:
Moving into the Classic, The city-state of Tikal was the head of one of twoo rival royal dynasties that dominated Maya geopolitics at the time. There was almost no rivers, lakes or springs nearby, so Tikal and it's surrounding towns and cities and suburban sprawl almost entirely relied on reservoirs for the collection of rainwater both on a public scales (The palace reservoir in Tikal could hold 30,000 cubic meters of water) but also household reservoirs and wells for personal water collection as well, and these large scale state-public reservoirs were not just in the urban centers, butt were strategically planned and placed across suburban and rural areas for public access and use. At the same time, grids of channel systems along it's farming fields located in nearby wetland to re-direct water flow to move waster from frequently flooded areas into less wet areas and as drainage sites in those areas as needed, as well as canals to act as drainage between reservoirs if some overflowed and dike systems to prevent overflow as well. And, again, the LIDAR data shows these were all spread across and planned across many hundreds of square kilometers, all of which had smaller urban cores amidst, suburban and agricultural sprawls, not just around the actual metropolis urban centers like the city of Tikal and others in the area such as Homul' in many ways resembling modern megalopolises.
Pic related shows such canal and dike overflow protection systems in Tikal's central urban core, which also had it's plazas and other structures covered in a watertight plaster/stucco that directed any runoff, flooding, or rainfall into said reservoirs, and one of which notably had a switch to choose which canal it flowed overflow into. Note that these maps/figures are from an older paper, not the recent LIDAR stuff, so it's even excluding shit, i'll upload the LIDAR oone when i'm done (the one this is from is free access)
6/?
Jason Davis
Just letting you know that someone is reading and appreciating this stuff.
Jeremiah Cook
Missisipian culture dissapeared before contact with the old world. Otherwise, the rest of what you said is relevant and correct.
Hudson Nelson
That actually makes a lot of sense if they had a huge industry around pottery, for manipulating clay on a bigger scale. Employing a pottery industry to build bigger things from related material in a timely fashion. Even small towns must have been a big industrial feat that benefited them over all. Did they have a feudal system about that with giving out land and expecting food returns and soldiers? The warefare system seems too organized that they just had fighters tributes. The lack of siege machines seems way more telling that settlements were planned in advance from an administrative stand point from a central source.
Henry Green
I find it really fascinating because even with the involvement of the Spanish there is still a conspicuous lack of siege machines. It wouldn't make any sense if fortifications were too little to repel an advancing force on short notice, but too much that nobody would build stuff to try to break the defenses.
Cooper Thompson
Thanks user. I appreciate your effort and find it fascinating.
As an addendum, I was recently reading about immense waterworks in medieval Siamese cities; do you think there's revision to expect there as the historical establishment adjusts their view of what's possible for high-precipitation civilizations?
Grayson Williams
They were pretty good gold and silver smiths, not to mention carvers. They just never made war on the scale of Europeans. Without constant war they didn’t develop advanced weapon making.
Jonathan Morgan
>gold and silver smiths
Lets be real here, that's just smacking a shiny rock into shape. Not a great deal of metallurgy required.
Nathan Anderson
thanks user
Wish I could be posting about warfare and militarism though given this is Jow Forums but it hasn't really come up much yet beyond , which I'll respond to tomorrow if the thread is still alive once I've finished these posts. and I've sort of already done a version of posts like this on Aztec warfare whiich I already linked . Maybee I can updatae and repost that too, we'll see
Ayways here's a model of the central core of the city of Tikal, you can see some of the reservoirs here. Unfortunately finding good models, 3d/CG, or painted reecreations of Mesoaamerican citiies is SUPER difficult: Espcially for the Maya, since so many of thieir structures are either unexacvated or are entirely decomposed if they were commoner homes mmade outt of perishable materials, so most recreations tend to just show the structures that are still visible as ruins, or just tthe core and not any of the surrounding infrastructure/suburbs. It's especially egregious with Palenque, whose water management systems I'll be getting into in the next post:
Hopefully as LIDAR scans become more common recreations will start to includee some buried/deecomposed structures and not just the super obvious ones.. I'll try to post examples of good or at least not awful ones (pic related is good as long as you keep in mind it's only the core, not including tthe immdiate suburbs and certainly nott the hundreds of square miles of suburban sprawl the lidar scans found) throughout the thread of cities I mention or photos of other shit I mention.
>Missisipian culture dissapeared before contact with the old world.
Eh, sort of. It certainly wasn't at the height it was at formerly but De Sooto came across a vaariiety of arguably Mississippian towns, and they weren't the only oones who haad towns and cities at the time: Again, ahe came across many, but only a few years later all were falling apart.
Jacob Garcia
>Teotihuacan
I went there when I was in tenth grade. I don't think they let you climb the pyramid of the Moon anymore, but we did Pyramid of the Sun like five or six times. I miss that place.
Carson Nguyen
I went to Chicken Pizza and Tulum about a decade ago. They let you climb the pyramid at Chichen Itza back then, no clue if they still do. Those stairs are steep as fuck, a little scary even with a big manilla rope in the middle to hold on to. All the better for throwing heads down I guess. Wish I had taken pictures.
Ayden Nguyen
Maybe? I'm not not an anthropologiy guy, I have an interest in Messooamerican history and know more then most people about the precolumbian americas in general by proxy
That being said I'm interestted in learning moreabout South/Southeast asian history if you can recommend sources?
>Even small towns must have been a big industrial feat that benefited them over all. Did they have a feudal system about that with giving out land and expecting food returns and soldiers? The warefare system seems too organized that they just had fighters tributes.The lack of siege machines seems way more telling that settlements were planned in advance from an administrative stand point from a central source.
I'm very confused if you are talking about Mississippians here or Mesoamerricans, the post started out clearly with the former but nobody said anything about Mississippian warfare, so.
Anyways, my understanding is that Misssispian's weren't exactly state societies. They had some sort of concept of nobility and social organization, since we see hiigh-stattus buriaals and obviously some sort of ruling class/governance system and social organization is needed to manage monumental construction. , but they weren't formal state governments with discrete administrative policies, organized armies, etc.
In terms of Mesoamerican class systems and how it interactts witth warfare, I suggest you check out my posts here: desuarchive.org
Xavier Russell
>chicken pizza
Hell yeah that sounds great
Adam Edwards
I'm heading too bed, i've gotten past all the rough stuff that was taking forever to double check my info on, I should be entirely done by tomorrow night.
Hoping an user can keep the thread from 404ing while I sleep for the next 10 hours or so
Cont:
Palenque, another Classical maya city had the opposite problem: According to the Palenque mapping project completed around 2000, there are 56 springs in or around the urban city core which fed into 9 separate streams which cut across the city, which led to flooding. So, in contrast to the the reservoir systems seen in Tikal meant to collect and store water, Palenque's hydraulics were designed to harness existing water flows and redirect them, often through underground aqueducts (The inside of these were sealed with stucco to be watertight) that passed underneath plazas, marketplaces, the palace, and other parts of the central city core thy would otherwise run through and flood, as well as via open air channels, with bridges constructed over them, into pools/basins, presumably for aesthetic purposes,which then flowed into either the underground aqueducts or channels; or blocked with dams. To be specific, based oon that mapping project, th city's urban core has 6 open air walled channels/aquaducts, 11 underground/pipped aqueducts, 3 drainage systems, 3 dams, 5 pools/basins, and 2 bridges. And this is just what was fund in 2000, there have been more found since.
Notably, one of these aqueducts, which is sloped down a hill, abruptly shrinks in channel size, which pressurizes the water as it traveled to create a fountain jet. Also, while I intend to get to sanitation systems once I wrap up with hydraulics (which should be another 1-2 posts?), it is worth noting that Palenque also has a set of toilets
7/?
Teotihuacan's ruins are super misleading since there's only a fraction of the site left, check out youtube.com
Parker Edwards
Many of the southwestern native cultures existed before contact. And some were not effected as badly by disease as others. There's a pre-contact Salado culture ruin just a few miles from me that dates to 1100 AD and the ruins were actually abandoned because of another native American tribe invading them (in this case western Apaches). The conqueror tribes were the ones that the Spanish met in this particular region 520 years ago. Some of the pre-contact native cultures traded sea shells from the Pacific, indicating that there were intricate connections between pre-contact native American cultures in this region. I've been to a few other of these ruins (in NM, CO, and AZ) and although some are 20th century restorations there were fairly large and intricate well established pre-contact cultures in the American southwest. Some of the ones I've been to are Besh Ba Gowah (AZ), Tonto Nat Monument (AZ), Montezuma castle (AZ) Chaco culture historic park (NM), and the Mesa Verde cliff dwellings (CO), all inhabited by pre-contact cultures in the same timeframe. Native cultures in the east were generally relatively newer than the western and southern native cultures which is why the older ones were generally more complex.
Jeremiah Martin
>A lot of native american groups only formed post-contact
false, this is fallacious communist revisionist history