F-35 vs s-300/400

How do stealth aircraft fair against russian s-300/400?
Can anyone give me a somewhat valid response, cause all I hear is vatniks saying it can down a bird flying on mars.

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basically, it uses █████ to effectively counter all ██████.
This was proven in the ██████ trials.
I could tell you more but, it's classified.

We have no idea

>electronic attack aircraft like the Growler jam the S-400's radars for an unknown percentage of it's range
>stealth aircraft bridge the rest of that gap
>S-400 battery may begin firing active radar missiles at positions it believes to contain stealth or electronic attack aircraft, this may be effective
>eventually the planes get within glide bomb and ARM range of the battery and spam everything they have
>ARMs may be fired from different vectors to prevent reassignment of missiles, stealthy cruise missiles (JASSM) may also be inbound during this
>tomahawks or other cruise missiles may also assist
>eventually the battery is going to run out of missiles or not have enough time to hit all the ordnance coming at it
>then everything else hits and takes the battery out
>zero to modest losses for the attacking force
literally any "S-400 CAN SEE THROUGH JAMMING" or "F-35 CAN ROUTE HARMS AROUND THE MISSILES!" talk is bullshit and you shouldn't trust any numbers provided since all of this depends on the exact layout of the scenario to such a great degree that, even if we had all of the numbers at hand, we couldn't make a reliable estimate since actual strikes would go down differently

if you want an actual real world example wait a few months to years for the israelis to eventually lose it and attack the S-300 batteries in syria

So it basically comes down to who has more dakka?

other SAMs in the area and their rules of engagement also factor in, point defense SAMs could tank an attack that would take out a well trained S-400 battery alone, or they could all fail since they weren't allowed to fire until it was obvious that the clear HARMs that were inbound weren't actually top secret missiles aiming at the orphanage next door

that and the exact circumstances of the engagement, an S-400 battery assigned to protect moscow during a war in the baltics would perform differently from an S-400 battery in syria during "peacetime"

12 jets with HARMs against an S-400 because we can't justify sending up 60 jets at once will go down completely differently from trump losing his shit and assigning an entire CSG to SEAD duties after a chemical weapons attack

Shouldn’t the batteries be protected by Tor and Pantsir short range AA batteries?
Moreover do the S-400 always keeps it’s radar on and reveal their position?

You will never find exact values or statements because none really knows for sure.

What we do know is that:

1. The F-35 isn't just stealthy in x-band otherwise it wouldn't have a lot of its features like rounded shapes or S-ducts, but also in longer wavelengths.

2. RCS decreases with increasing wavelength if the wavelength is close to the size of the aircraft. This removes some of the often claimed avantage of longer wavelengths having better range.

3. Accuracy is dependent on array size and wavelength, and for the higher wavelengths not even the ground arrays are big enough for really good accuracy.

So loose estimations should put an effective range of those defensive systems against the F-35 between 40-80 km (supposing the detection range is targeting range). This is without considering any jamming to start with, yet seems like an already decent range to take the systems out. Of course these are my loosely handmade estimations and I don't claim they are anything more. Also, I clearly stated effective range as stated, they could fire half blindly in the general location of the signal.

yes and they may be effective (at some point all they'll do is increase the number of ARMs you need, always remember that), and maybe. i'm not an ELINT expert and i don't know how the S-400 operators use their radars. i'm guessing that they move them around occasionally and probably use other radars for their day to day operations if they're concerned about getting bombed

bottom line though if the battery is being attacked it will probably have it's radars going at some point

I see, but theoretically speaking would reconssaince play a role here?
Also can you really coordinate with AWACS since it can shoot them down?

Just JASSM that shit

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Thanks.
Is it a good idea to provoke them to fire half blindly and then retreat so you can deplete their amount of missiles?
Im guessing moving at mach 3 the missles don’t have that much loitering time

Kek they made the containers like a TEL, hopefully they didn’t use it’s AI to train on that, can make real easy decoys.

A very simple question to a very complex problem.
It's important to understand that the S-400 is part of a network of different SAMs and does not appear alone. Individual systems have different jobs and can therefore only fire, or not, at specific targets. Due to the complexity of any IADS you simply don't attack such a system using nothing but a few F-35.
All the usual DEAD munition the Air Force uses is outranged by the stated maximum engagment radius of the S-400, the only thing that almost comes close is the JASSM-ER and the F-35 can not carry it. The only thing the F-35, at the moment that is, can really bring to the table for this particular job is the sensor suit in combination with its overall very low RCS. While AARGMs are obviously useful they definitely will never be the spear for this kind of attack due to their low range. An attacking force that seeks to destroy a S-400 in particular would most likely be composed of legacy aircraft(Hornets, Eagles, B-1s) due to the stand-off munition, extensive jamming via Growlers/dedicated ECM aircraft and ELINT from various sources. The biggest input of the F-35 in this case would be jamming via its internal ECM and ELINT.

Pantsir is a shit, incapable to differentiate large avian specimen from drones.

In fact, you'd probably see a bunch of F-16s as well due to them being able to carry MALD-Js which would absolutely be a part of this sort of attack.

The F35 initially had difficulties training because it's sensors were too sensitive to fall for decoy targets. They had to add a 'training mode.'

>mfw pantsir kill so much birds it’s Great Leap Forward 2: Electric bogaloo

>Well-known Russian military expert and editor-in-chief of ‘Arsenal of Fatherland’ magazine Viktor Murakhovsky posted on his Facebook page the post which mentions the failure of the Pantsir-S1 anti-aircraft missile systems protecting the Russian Hmeimim Air Base in Syria.

>According to Viktor Murakhovsky post, in Syria, it came to light that these Pantsir-S1 anti-aircraft missile systems practically “do not track” low-speed and small-sized targets, which include drones, but at the same time regularly spotted big birds flying around the base, which is confusing for operators.

just get a bunch of JASSMs

I am guessing they need to adjust it better.
New technologies get better with passing time, unless the Ruskies all starve to death

What if they don’t use their radars that often to hide?
What about cruise missle defense systems?

MALD + JASSM + AARGM

+ retarded amounts of tomahawks

>How do stealth aircraft fair against russian s-300/400?
Not well
>How do stealth aircraft fair against s-300/400 used by others?
Pretty well.
Russians has their S300/400 integrated into big-ass system with OTH radars and shit. Any other operator of S300/400 (except China) does not have that capabilities. Their SAM are alone. And In that case stealth fighters will do a great job.

kek

>with OTH radars and shit
What's this going to achieve other than early warning, assuming they wouldn't be jammed to shit or constitute the first targets.

Those OTH radars look for shit in space, not down on the deck hundreds of thousands of miles away.
And it's not like Russian SAM systems are good anyways.

You can't be shot down if you can't fly

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>implying they won't just spam cruise missiles at it
All the sX00s are massive and obvious things. With drones, spy satellites and cruise missiles it should be pretty easy to clear airspace from them

>Not well
According to what? You vodkaboos always make assertions like this but there is literally no evidence for this whatsoever.

Basically the tl;dr version of
is
>the defender is always, ALWAYS at a disadvantage. Saturation attacks WILL work. Stealth WILL work, even if it incurs some losses. Full stop.

The US has enough dakka to counter half the world rallied against it combined. The other Western powers probably have enough dakka to saturate any country's defensive batteries.

Pantsir is practically ancient by AA standards though. The Russians have had them since well before the fall of the Soviet Union, and most of the systems are older than the people operating them.

Then they can't shoot anything down, making them a pointless waste of space and money.

Also

Buys them an extra 50-100km engagement range. Which still doesn't outrange a JASSM.

And yes, the permanent OTH radar systems will be #1 priority since they can't be moved, are 100% required for the grid to work, and are generally easy, well-known targets. A single Tomahawk spam wave will kill 100% of them.

In theory, in theory mind you, the radar on the S-400 is good enough to detect the RCS of an F-35 before it's within good striking range with standard off-the-shelf 80's tech HARMs.

But that is assuming 100% proficiency of the operators, forewarning, and good luck. Of which Russia will have none of.

See

We are not even sure if that's still true. Modern AA systems are deadly. Near future additions like laser CIWS will make them even more so.

Yes, right now west has a gigantic advantage in numbers and Russian defense systems have literally 0 chance to defeat massed western air strikes.

But if both sides were at comparable strength we don't know how it would go.

>But if both sides were at comparable strength we don't know how it would go
The only time that will happen in the next 150+ years is when two shithole 3rd world countries try to duke it out, which will (inevitably) devolve into WW1 tier/Iraq-Iran War tier slogfests.

And guess what? Third world shitholes can't afford to field consequential numbers of either stealth aircraft or S-whatever Russian SAMs.

Yeah that's literally my point.

The West has 3 options.
>option 1
Use newer missiles that either outrange the S-whatevers or are stealthy enough to remain undetected until within the kill envelope
>option 2
Fire from max range and live with not having a 90%+ hit rate, expending a few dozen more 80s tech HARMs than absolutely necessary.
>option 3
Use one of the literally hundreds of EW aircraft to jam the fuck out of the S-whatever's and/or hunt them down Wild Weasel style, then roll in carpet bombing the positions once the radars are dead.

None of which equate to meaningful losses for the West, and total annihilation of the air defense network of [whichever country is using the S-whatevers]. It really boils down to "spend mo' money or lose a pilot or two"

>[insert Western nation here] loses [ultimately inconsequential but $$$$$$ number of stealth aircraft]
OH NOES THAT WILL TAKE US ALL OF 6 MONTHS TO REPLACE!
>Russia loses [all of] S-400's in 1 attack
OH NOES RUSSIA IS BANKRUPT FOREVER BECAUSE WE HAVE THE SAME ECONOMY AS FUCKING ****GREECE**** DESPITE 30000X THE LANDMASS AND WILL NEVER EVER BE ABLE TO REPLACE THEM

Alternatively:
>[insert Western nation here] loses [ultimately inconsequential but $$$$$$ number of stealth aircraft]
OH NOES THAT WILL TAKE US ALL OF 6 MONTHS TO REPLACE!
>China loses [80% of] their [much larger than Russia's but ultimately still 75% as effective stolen clone-designs] not!S-400
HAHAHAHAHAHA WESTERN PIGGU WE WERE ORNRY PRAYING DAT DESIGN IS SHIT GRORIOUS CHINA HAS [absurdly large imaginary number] OF [quantum, fictitious][system] CHINA REIGNS SUPREME (as all strategic targets in China are destroyed in 12 hours and the chinks resort to cannibalizing a tenth of their population for the [a lot] time in history)