It kind of seems like a small bullet with too much velocity, and therefore recoil, to be useful in automatic fire. The Germans had the right idea, and the M43 worked well, so why was such an overpowdered cartridge pushed so far?
Would the .280 British be a viable service cartridge?
Cooper Gomez
Ian Sullivan
>15 moa
LOL no.
>ice picking intensifies
William Lopez
>It kind of seems like a small bullet with too much velocity, and therefore recoil, to be useful in automatic fire. The Germans had the right idea, and the M43 worked well, so why was such an overpowdered cartridge pushed so far?
yeah dude 5.56 is sooo hard to use on full auto
nigger look at 7.62x39 and people firing it on FA being jerked around thats what .280 Mccollum's boner would have been. its' the same round
Ian Anderson
Behold. Just another thing MacArthur fucked up.
Nicholas Garcia
AR has a different recoil system and 5.56 is a lighter projectile with less energy. But yup, it doesn't have much recoil, but this conversation would really have to be in retrospect to consider when countries were fielding full auto .308s and open bolt smgs
Elijah Foster
All for an almost 20 year old stockpile that may have had quite a few duds in it.
Wyatt Johnson
Imagine if Garand got to go full out on his design, we'd have 20-30 round box magazine fed semi auto rifles with flash suppressors. If I was in charge?
>M1 with a 20-30 round box magazine with a M14 style flash suppressor in .276
>M2 Carbine with a straight line stock, select fire, and 30 round mags and a Thompson Cutts style compensator.
>M1911 chambered in .38 Super
Rate and hate.
Joshua Flores
Make the carbine a first model Hyde carbine that shoots a super early .22 spitfire or a .30 carbine necked down to something like 6.5 or 7mm
Dylan Powell
>Would .280 have been a viable military cartridge?
Yes.
>Would .280 have been a better military cartridge than 7.62x51?
No.
Cooper Thomas
.276 Pederson was minmaxed with a lead core projectile, it was unable to perform as a steel core round like M2AP (which was the primary infantry round of the US Army in WW2 and Korea).
Austin Morales
>wanting esoteric ammo
A bird in hand user.
Nathaniel Peterson
>worse than 7.62x51
I fail to imagine how any cartridge could be worse for general infantry use than one that lasted for 8 years in the US army.
Jace Martin
The US never stopped using 7.62x51 when the terrible M14 rifle was superseded by the M16.
Austin Richardson
cartridges don't win wars dipshit, logistics does
>I've watched 3 forgotten weapons episodes so now I'm a small arms expert: the post
The switch would not have happened for at least another 20 or 30 years if they adopted something other than the M14
The m14 isn't terrible it was just 10 years too late to be relevant.
Oliver Ramirez
>muh stockpiles
You are now aware that piece of fuddlore doesn't hold up when you realize the US would still have other firearms in .30-06 if .276 Pederson hadn't been a failure.
Wyatt Wilson
Not everyone hoards the most common rounds. Some people enjoy the obscure and handloading for it. My hunting rifles are all weatherby cartridges.
Samuel Myers
>my safe queens are all in cartridges you are too uncultured to appreciate
Cooper Wilson
It would have been better.
>cartridges don't win wars dipshit, logistics does
Those stockpiles of ammunition would have been shot through almost instantly. And were.
>The m14 isn't terrible
Yes. It was and still is.
Elijah Cruz
>it was unable to perform as a steel core round like M2AP (which was the primary infantry round of the US Army in WW2 and Korea).
That's fucking retarded.
Angel Morgan
>>cartridges don't win wars dipshit, logistics does
>
You realize that adding another cartridge to the supply chain only increases the difficulty of supplying troops and makes logistics more complex?
The marginal benefit of .276 is greatly outweighed by needing to supply riflemen with different ammo than those with BAR's 1919's and Springfield. It's fucking stupid.
>Yes. It was and still is.
Is the M1 Garand terrible?
Thomas Green
>The marginal benefit of .276 is greatly outweighed by needing to supply riflemen with different ammo than those with BAR's 1919's and Springfield. It's fucking stupid.
Yeah. Replace those BARs and Springfields with the fun swtich pedersen caliber rifles, and in a single stroke also get rid of SMGs outside of air crews.
>Is the M1 Garand terrible?
>M14 is the M1 Garand but with more ammo
Retard. We got a retard over here.
Carter Gray
>we can either
>A. replace or modify every single one of our armaments in inventory and all of our stockpiles of ammunition to adopt a cartridge that is marginally lighter and more pleasant to shoot
>B. just chamber it in the caliber we already have
really tough choice
Feel free to enlighten me on how the Garand is somehow better than M14, despite the M14 having a better gas system that doesn't beat itself to death, a flashhider and takes magazines.
Lincoln Sanchez
>It would have been better.
Except it wasn't.
.276 Pederson did not have the case capacity to take larger steel core rounds and retain the muzzle velocity needed.
>Is the M1 Garand terrible?
The M14 is, at best, only based on the Garand's action. The changes to it made it less reliable and not last as long.
Josiah Gutierrez
>really tough choice
Also doing so during the Great Depression, for a round that was inferior to M2AP.
Ethan Smith
For the main concerns
>Range equivalent to 7.62 NATO out of an MG
>Best BC, simple solid bullet
>State of art compressed powder and chamber pressure
I think the spiral ends somewhere smaller than 6.5. Even adding extra to cut barrel length and bullet weight (rifles and AP insert), - 7mm is big.
Grayson Hall
wasn't the first mistake we ever made
Liam Sanchez
>M1 garand will literally beat it self to death if you shoot anything but military spec 150 grain .30-06
>somehow better than a self regulating gas piston that has a stronger, shorter operating rod
Jack Hughes
>hot loads made for bolt action hunting rifles is out of spec for a rifle designed to fire specific military cartridges
You do know that an M14 has this issue as well, right?
Jason Williams
>doesn't actually know what changes were made to the action of an M14
David Rogers
.257 Weatherby Magnum is the only cartridge you'll ever need
Cameron Morris
>commercial hunting ammo
>hot loads
sure
M14 only starts having potential problems over 180 grains, nearly all .308 is below that, a large portion of .30-06 is over 150 grains, and if it is 150 grains, it's going faster than m2 ball
>>doesn't actually know what changes were made to the action of an M14
sounds like you're the one that doesn't
M14 has a shorter gas system with a gas piston that hits the op rod and has a hole for bleeding off excess gas.
Garand has has the propellant gasses directly impinging on the op rod
Nolan Torres
>>we can either
>>A. replace or modify every single one of our armaments in inventory and all of our stockpiles of ammunition to adopt a cartridge that is marginally lighter and more pleasant to shoot
>>B. just chamber it in the caliber we already have
Not really.
Garand's were all new builds to begin with. BARs weren't manufactured en masse until the 2nd war was about to start, and ditching the SMGs with a intermediate cartridge that can fire in fully automatic just fine means you don't waste time building all those SMGs. Or carbines. 90% of all ammunition used during WWII was MADE during the war. Ditching Carbines, SMGs, and BARs and replacing them with proper Pedersens and better machine guns, literally anything.
>Feel free to enlighten me on how the Garand is somehow better than M14
Changing them there goalposts.
Bad argument, since they spent the money developing the round anyways. MacArthur was a shit.
>larger steel core rounds
You mean trash rounds, for trash?
Juan Taylor
>commercial hunting ammo that didn't exist until long after WW2
Andrew Ortiz
Actually if you're going that route you could just use a .38 Super M1/M2 as well. It would only be a shade slower than .30 out of that barrel length while being a little heavier. The spitfire was rad though
Jaxon Gray
I hope you have a more detailed understanding of the changes than 'shorter op rod' and 'self regulating gas block'.
Michael Thomas
>Is the M1 Garand terrible?
When compared to modern day firearms and ammunition, yes, its straight fucking garbage. At the time of its development it was decent.
At the time of the M14s development, it was a peice of shit and remained that way for its entire lifespan.
Jaxon Lewis
Pederson wasn't a good military cartridge, and trying to load the types of projectiles actually used in war meant it couldn't retain the muzzle velocity needed.
>larger steel core rounds
>You mean trash rounds, for trash?
Babby's first dabble into bullet design and case capacity? I bet you think the US used lead core ammunition in WW2.
Jaxson Johnson
At the time of the Garand's adoption it was an 8 shot self loading rifle in a world of 5 shot bolt action rifles.
At the time of the M14's adoption it was an early self loading rifle design a decade after other rifles were being made that incorporated lessons learned in what not to do in a self loading rifle.
Jeremiah Young
>completely ignoring the fact that 1903 springfields and 1919's exist
>and ditching the SMGs with a intermediate cartridge that can fire in fully automatic just fine means you don't waste time building all those SMGs. Or carbines
>shitting on the m14 while advocating for the same stupid logic of a powerful rifle replacing submachine guns and carbines
the irony is palpable
A 9 pound rifle that takes 10 round enblocs does not make a sub machinegun
Name an actual advantage of the cartridge that would warrant a military to abandon a cartridge it has already stocked up on in the middle of the worst depression in the countries history.
>Changing them there goalposts.
If the M14 is terrible, the M1 Garand is even worse because the M14 is M1 Garand with a shorter receiver, improved gas system and box magazines.
Do you need the exact measurements quoted you dumb fuck? The gas port on a M14 is like 6 inches from the muzzle, it has a gas piston that impinges on the operating rod, once the piston moves far enough to misalign the port, it cuts off excess gas pressure.
The fact you can actually shoot most ammo through a M14 without it killing it self is evidence of the fact the gas system is improved. You have no argument.
>GAIS THE GARAND IS MORE DURABLE THAN THE M14
>M14 can shoot most off the shelf ammo
>Garand can't
>i-it's not fair to compare because that ammo didn't exist prior to WW2! (despite the fact .30-06 has long been offered in bullet weights over 150g
In design terms, the M14 is factually better than the Garand, my argument is that if he thinks the M14 is shit, the Garand is worse. I'm not talking in reference to at the point of the adoption, just as a design.
Landon Reed
>In design terms, the M14 is factually better than the Garand, my argument is that if he thinks the M14 is shit, the Garand is worse.
But thats wrong.
Isaiah Clark
How is it wrong.
Xavier Thompson
How many hints do you need that there were more changes to the action than a self regulating gas system and a shorter action/op rod?
Jason Miller
>literally a non-issue when a few mm of metal is removed
>literally capable of handling .458win conversions
Ayden Martin
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Nolan Gonzalez
I've talking about the major changes between the two designs. Of course the receiver had to be changed due to the cartridge being shorter, the M14 bolt having a roller, going from the enbloc system to the detachable magazines as well as other things. But small details aren't particularly relevant to the overall point that the M14 was designed off the Garand with 20 years of knowledge and experience learned from the Garand's service.
Evan Parker
>too much velocity
No such thing