10mm auto, a magnum for 21st century

That would be .32 caliber rounds like .32 acp or .327 federal magnum.

10mm is a timeless Chad caliber.

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I own a glock 40. It's a very pretty gun that is very fun to shoot.

If you just care about functionality a glock 20 is fine.

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I have a glock 29 extended barrel on order, soon to pick up the pistol itself as well. Will have slightly higher energy than out of a 20, small gun, can extend handle with g20 magazines plus a extension piece.

A 40 with a 7 inch barrel would be producing energies rivaling an sbr with some loads, certain copper bullets could reach 2500 FPS out of that length. At this point you are set for anything outside of grizzly, moose, Buffalo and large ass elk, but wouldn’t mind it to defend against any of them. I weep for 9mm ladies.

You can break 1000 ft lbs easily with a 7 inch barrel. Its just barely doable with a 6 inch barrel.

calguns.net/calgunforum/archive/index.php/t-514584.html

You don't really need a big gun to get almost all of the power you could ever need though.

youtu.be/qVwbZ0m2llQ

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youtu.be/sZBVnquaLXM

This guy has killed 3 Cape buffalo with 10mm

youtu.be/aeHyt3WWgQU

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youtu.be/r0BQHa2VKBI

Hes killed elk aswell

.357 SIG has as much utility today as 357 magnum did nearly 100 years ago.
Both calibers when compared against standard carry options of their day (9mm / .38 Special), offer a much appreciated increase in penetration against barriers like cars, walls, or glass, while fitting in strong guns of the same size; no need to move up to a large-frame revolver / pistol designed for .44 Special / .45 ACP.

They both offer effective performance against soft body armor, and both have have obvious utility against big game.

Both are also suitable for long range handgun shooting. You'd be hard pressed to hunt medium game with a 9mm at 100 yards, meanwhile a .357 SIG will still be carrying more energy per frontal area than .45 ACP +P or 9mm has at the muzzle.

357 SIG is 357 magnum for the 21st century. It's a ballistic clone of .357 (when compared from guns of the same physical size), which can feed reliably from a modern, doublestack, small-frame autoloading pistol.

Is the headspace still an issue?
As far is i know reloaded ammo goes boom, but is there any particular way to check it to be sure.

357 magnum didn’t exist 100 years ago zoomer

>10mm is a magnum for the 21st century.
*blocks your path*

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I bought this cause fuck Glock

colt.com/detail-page/colt-delta-elite-10mm-fs

And magtech ammo over S&B as the
muzzle energy was higher than S&B

>nearly
Having trouble reading?

I didn’t realize it’s nearly 2034

This is the only Glock that is actually cool.

>Don’t worry, he’ll tell you.

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Where get?

Are you me? That's my dream set up I'm going for.

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>micro roni

I knew this post was coming. I almost inb4'd .357 sig users but I dont have enough contempt for the caliber to that.

I dont think .357 sig is a bad round, it has many benefits when compared to 9mm, I just don't see what it has to offer against 10mm.

10mm deals with barriers better due to heavier, more energetic bullets with flat nose profiles.

10mm frame pistols arent that big, my buddies glock 29 is not noticeably bigger then my glock 19.

.357 sig is not suitable for hunting or defence against big game, it's small and light bullets dont have sufficient penetration. Nobody serious loads hardcast .357 sig for a reason.

It would be a great pistol round to hunt deer with at 50-100 yards if almost every state didnt specify pistol rounds have to be at least .40 caliber.

A standard .357 sig load has the same energy at 100 yards that standard pressure 9mm has at the muzzle.

gunnersden.com/handgun-ballistics/

Also .357 sig is a neutered round when compared to .357 magnum. End of story. It replicates the old standard self defense load, not the smokin hot loads people used to hunt polar bears with.

Find me a .357 sig load that matches or gets close to this performance.
buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=541

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85 years is nearly a century

45 super loaded to 460 Rowland pressures is superior to 10mm.

What the fuck. I have a friend going for the same thing. He already has the rfb.

my .50AE is superior to all those. get gud.

9mm Dillion is better, better still is 45 super necked down to 9mm.

50 ae offers much less ammo capacity and you need a very heavy big gun for it. If you’re doing something as big as 50 ae a much better choice would be 440 corbon(50 ae necked down to .429) or 45 win mag.

>too heavy
for you

Little baby

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10mm has become the Tapout t-shirt of the gun world.

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>not shooting 100 grains at 2100FPS

10mm fanboys are onions boys getting babys first "big" gun

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>Pretty much just American eagle at this point.
Nah. There're still plenty of big manufacturers like Winchester and Prvi that make watered-down 10mm. Plenty more that only barely outperform standard .40 loads.

Step aside faggot

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>T.brainlet

you would get even more velocity with the same grain in 9x25 dillion, I hope your not this retarded.

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It's literally just 10mm slightly necked down retard

That would be .40sw

Oh god it is retarded.

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I would get a 10mm, if there was any actual proof of better stopping power over 9mm, of which there is literally none.

You are a retarded one, aren't you?

No difference whatsoever!!!

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No not really faggot. Both lucky gunner and Paul Harrell did independent tests and they’re conclusions were the same - 10mm is just expensive .40 S&W.

It's an MCK with a Glock 20 in it. Glockstore

>5 ft 10 vs 6 ft

>10mm auto has as much utility today as 357 magnum did nearly 100 years ago.
You'd be right if 10mm didn't suffer from a critical lack of medium and light weight for caliber expanding bullets actually designed for use at 10mm velocities.
>It's a mildly improved ballistic clone of .357
when it comes to penetration, the main point of picking .357 over lesser calibers, the 10mm is actually slightly inferior due to its lower sectional density.

>.357 SIG has as much utility today as 357 magnum did nearly 100 years ago.
As a blatant .357S fanboy that's complete BS. .357S is shit with the heavy for caliber dense loads that made .357 magnum such a good woods gun for the lower 48.
>It's a ballistic clone of .357
Only with 125gr loadings, it falls noticeably short with anything heavier, and can't even fit the 180gr bullets that make .357 magnum a viable large animal defense round.
>when compared from guns of the same physical size
actually .357S can equal .357 magnum ballistic performance, when it comes to 125gr loadings, out of a smaller OAL gun. A 4" revolver has a longer OAL than a 4" autoloader, despite the two offering identical performance.
>I just don't see what it has to offer against 10mm.
Actually offering expanding rounds that get more than 1500fps while penetrating adequately, also offering monolithic meme bullets that reliably get over 2k FPS, guaranteeing rifle like performance out of a handgun with adequate penetration. All of this out of a 9mm sized frame and with grater capacity.

Given current realities of market offerings the .357S makes a lot of sense for an innacity gun.
By less than 100fps with an identical bbl length. 9x25 is a meme.

Not to mention only 5% of 10mm loads are at the level of 10mm memes we see here
>And even then
>You're paying 3 times as much for a 10% increase in penetration AT BEST
>You're increasing your recoil so you're now even more of a lousy shot
>Oh yeah and 10mm will rape the fuck out of your guns lifespan so enjoy replacing parts under the 500 round mark
Similar deal with 7.62x25 but that one is availability mostly

Jokes on you, I'm a gluten free keto vegan crossfitting full stack unix developer who edc's a glock 29.

Modern FMJ 7.62x25mm Tokarev is within the same FPS range than milsurp ammo is. There were rumors of S&B loading theirs a bit too hot for pistols (around 1800 FPS, which lead to some damaged Tokarevs), but now they're back to milspec ranges.

>heavier, more energetic bullets
But also more frontal area, so you need more mass and energy to punch through the same barrier. It is an upgrade, but a much smaller one than it appears.
If you just want to spray water out of milk jugs, raw energy is what matters, and caliber doesn't hurt anything.
But if you're concerned with penetrating barriers, or with velocity retention at long range (you know, the reasons you'd go with one of .357 Magnum, .357 SIG, and/or 10mm), sectional density matters more than mass, and energy per unit area matters more than raw energy.

>it's small and light bullets dont have sufficient penetration
Have you just not done the math or what?
>147gr .355, SD = 0.167
>180gr .400, SD = 0.161
The .357 SIG bullet has slightly higher SD, and is generally loaded to the same or higher velocity in the same barrel length. (Keep in mind SAAMI spec for .357 SIG is 4", while 10mm is 5", so many manufacturer's stated values are not directly comparable.)

>Also .357 sig is a neutered round when compared to .357 magnum. End of story.
Not at normal bullet weights, it isn't.
>It replicates the old standard self defense load,
Oh, this is another episode of "let's compare 4" revolvers and 4" autopistols like they're the same", huh?

.357 SIG's standard load of 125gr@1350, from a 4" test barrel (as prescribed by SAAMI) is significantly faster than typical 125gr loads in a snubby.
This is the correct comparison, because a 2.x" snubby is almost exactly the same size as a 4" barreled compact:
>2.25"-barreled SP101 is 7.2" OAL
>4.06"-barreled G32 Gen4 is 7.28" OAL

Of course boutique .357 Mag loads are much hotter than "typical", and do exceed typical .357 SIG even in snubbies. But then to compare like with like, you have to consider boutique .357 SIG loads push that up to around 125gr@1450; it's pretty much neck-and-neck.
For example, DoubleTap rates their 125gr .357 Mag at 1425 in a 1-7/8" revolver, and their .357 SIG at 1415 in a 3.5" pistol.
(cont'd)

(cont'd)
>Find me a .357 sig load that matches or gets close to this performance.
>>> 180gr JHP (SD = 0.202) at 1258+fps
You know as well as I do that .357SIG, being a smaller-volume case, suffers more by taking up a given amount of that case capacity with a long, heavy projectile. so of course it doesn't keep up at 180gr.
The only 180gr load I'm aware of is DoubleTap's, rated at 1025 fps from a 4" barrel.

But now you find me a 10mm load that matches it in the same size gun, including sectional density, okay?
(You'll get a little closer than .357 SIG did, but you won't match it either.)
Keep in mind to have the same sectional density, it'll have to be a 226gr bullet at the same velocity.
And for comparable guns, take your pick (note that large-frame handguns have shorter barrels for the same physical size vs the small-frame G32 we considered above):
>3.78"-barreled G29 is 6.97" OAL
>4.61"-barreled G20 is 8.07" OAL
>6.02"-barreled G40 is 9.49" OAL
>2.25"-barreled SP101 is 7.2" OAL
>3"-barreled SP101 is 8" OAL
>4.2"-barreled GP100 is 9.50" long

>shit with the heavy for caliber dense loads that made .357 magnum such a good woods gun for the lower 48.
Yes, but .357 Magnum didn't become popular because it was a good woods gun -- it became popular because of its effectiveness as a police and self-defense gun with normal 158gr and 125gr loads.
>Only with 125gr loadings
Given the barrel length advantage of comparing same-size guns, it actually holds up at least to 147gr (compare to 148gr STHP), and I believe (with no evidence, because nobody loads it) that 158gr would be pretty close to the normal loads .357 Magnum's popularity was built on, though it would fall short of boutique 158gr .357 Magnum loads with modern powder.
180gr, though, is definitely a step too far.

I'm waiting for the evidence chief

>No not really faggot. Both lucky gunner and Paul Harrell did independent tests and they’re conclusions were the same - 10mm is just expensive .40 S&W.

Holy shit both of those tests used 10mm lite, which is like shooting .40+p.

Most 10mm production ammo is lite loaded

>10mm
Not considerable for self defense unless you like being convicted of 2nd degree murder.

I hope you aren't serious.

He’s serious, someone was convicted because they used some hot 10mm jhps

Sauce or GTFO. By that logic you couldn't use +P 9mm or hollowpoints because they are designed to inflict more damage.

>secondcalldefense.org/harold-fish
I wasn’t joking, this was a legitimate case. The prosecution convinced a jury to convict a man of murder entirely based on the fact that he used 10mm. This was despite acknowledging that his actions were in self defense, or that he truly believed he was in danger.

Their argument was that selection of this caliber showed malicious intent based on its history. The FBI down sized it because it was too devastating, it was a magnum power bullet, it had no use hunting, it was more powerful than police handguns, etc.

Court rooms are far more terrifying places than any dark alley or parking lot ever could be.

>Court rooms are far more terrifying places than any dark alley or parking lot ever could be.

I agree with that but it sounds like this guy had a really shitty defense.

glocktalk.com/threads/legal-consequences-of-using-10mm-in-self-defense-and-injuring-innocent.1476711/

Harold Fish, google it.

>By that logic you couldn't use +P 9mm or hollowpoints
It is common legal advice to use FMJs or the same ammunition issued by your local PD.

I love 9x25 Dillon.

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i agree with some of what you're saying but:
>comparing 147gr .357 sig(just about heaviest for caliber) with 180gr 10mm(medium for caliber in respect to woods loads)
Typical hardcast 10mm rounds, AKA the ones actually intended for maximum penetration and those which give 10mm its reputation for great penetration, are 200-220gr. For reference the latter has an SD of 1.96, considerably greater than the most dense of commonly available .357S loads.
>muh standard loads makes .357 sig and mag equal
158gr .357 magnum loaded to about 1500fps from a 6" bbl is the archetypal load for the caliber, and largely what it was intended to run with since the days of .38-44 hotrodding. With modern high end loads you can expect a hair under that(roughly 1480-90 fps) from a 4" bbl. With comparable bbl lengths .357 sig simply cant come close to matching this, even with an 11gr lighter bullet, this gulf widens even further with 180gr loads.
>muh OAL
We're talking about utility here, and at this point specifically utility for woods gun use it seems. Actually being able to launch very heavy and dense loads at moderate velocity in the first place out of a reasonably sized gun is much more important than what caliber does better within arbitrarily defined projectile weight and OAL limitations designed to favor your personal preference. Who cares about another 2" of OAL in this use when it means you can chuck a 25% heavier, 25% denser bullet, 125-150fps faster?
>.357 Magnum didn't become popular because it was a good woods gun
Its actually one of if not the main reason it became popular. People forget that it was the best OTC show in town for that role tell .44 mag showed up 20yrs later, and was routinely used for taking large game.

.357 sig is practically just as good(shot per shot) with typical handgun bbl lengths when it comes to street use loads, but once you talk about general utility let alone innawoods use in specific the .357 mag is noticeably ahead.

>The prosecution convinced a jury to convict a man of murder entirely based on the fact that he used 10mm.
No. it was actually a pretty minor part of the case, and effectively a cherry on top to impugn harolds character and imply malice aforethought. the pros managed to get the shootees long violent history disallowed, found an ME to ""imply"" that the wounds were consistent with a man shot while surrendering, and found a witness who could be convinced into claiming that he heard gunshots "like totally hours" before harold fish called police. That's what got him in a cell, and later got the case overturned on appeal.

>It is common legal advice to use FMJs or the same ammunition issued by your local PD.

You would literally have to hire a potato for your defense to not be able to justify using self defense ammo or 10mm/.357 mag/.44 mag etc.

Don't forget you can shoot a pretty diverse range of weights with it too. I agree.

Hold on, I'll be back

Death to anybody who references lucky gunner

Fair point. But there are still several loads that fit this category.

youtu.be/Y8Q6bEMJHpY
youtu.be/sHYEhGlw87M
youtu.be/ofCgLKpqt7c
youtu.be/l9W_ZF0-B_4

10mm bullets penetrate better do to their nose profile. The sectional density of a 230 grain 10mm matches most any .357.

.38 Casull has as much utility today as 357 magnum did nearly 100 years ago.
Both calibers when compared against standard carry options of their day (9mm / .38 special), offer a much appreciated increase in penetration against barriers like cars, walls, or glass

They both offer effective performance against soft body armor, and both have have obvious utility against big game.

Both are also suitable for long range handgun shooting. You'd be hard pressed to hunt medium game with a 9mm at 100 yards, meanwhile a 38 Casull will still be carrying more energy then .45 acp +p has at the muzzle.

38 Casull is 357 magnum for the 21st century. It's a mildly improved ballistic clone of .357, which can feed reliably from a modern doublestack autoloading pistol.

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No. Just stop talking about shit you know nothing about

10mm penetrates just as good as .357. Better against hard targets since it can get very high fps loads that dont flameout the gun to pieces.

What's so good about super fast hollowpoints?

Also Underwood 155 grain loads hit 1550 from a glock 20, and penetrate 14 Inches in clear gel.

youtu.be/l9W_ZF0-B_4

Economy of scale can apply to 10mm, when reloading it's as effectively as cheap as .357.

10% penetration increase against what? .357?

10mm recoil is pretty minor

10mm guns hold up just fine faggot. Your thinking of .40 sw or some clown caliber like .45 super

>he uses hollowpoint weights for bears

10mm has an SD of .207 with 230 grain pills. I personally use 220 grain Underwood rounds.

.357 sig fmj will NOT penetrate even 2/3ds as deep as 10mm. You want heavy bullets, not fast bullets for penetration.

Standard barrel length according to underwood was 5 inches for 10mm, and 4.6 inches for sig. It's the same shit.

The caliber is neutured. 1400 fps is pathetic. A good .357 magnum load should be fucking 125 grains well in excess of 1700 fps.

It's a fine round. But it's not as powerful as .357 or 10mm.

Do any .357 sig loads hit 900 ft lbs of muzzle energy from a 6 or even 8 inch barrel?

You just admitted that your caliber cant fire heavy bullets. Which is what matters for big game.

>But now you find me a 10mm load that matches it in the same size gun, including sectional density, okay?

Ok, that would mean 180-220 grains at 1500-1400 fps from an 8 inch barrel.

1. calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=496074&highlight=glockzilla

From a 7 inch barrel:
180 at 1400
200 at 1350

With another inch of barrel you'd be right on the mark.
If you want total energy heres the same guy pushing 1100 ft lbs, I know it's not relevant to what your asking, but it's a good example of what lightweight 10mm loads can do.

calguns.net/calgunforum/archive/index.php/t-514584.html
2. Swampfox ammo loads chuck 200 grains at 1325 from a stock 4.5 inch glock 20 barrel. Lord knows what they would do with nearly double the barrel length.

3. This is the most optimistic estimate, with reported numbers that vary a bit, but from sources I've seen Underwood 220 grain hardcasts clock in at 1200 from a 5 inch barrel, 1280 from a 6 inch barrel. And presumably would get another 100-150 fps from another 2 inches of barrel allowing them to clock in at 1400+ fps.

These loads represent the maximum of 10mm performance for the most part. But they match or eclipse most any .357 load.

Using a pissin hot powder charge of accurate #9, 800x, or longshot, you can attain this performance reliably from a 7-9 inch barrel, which puts you in the right size for equal total length with a 6 inch .357 magnum revolver.

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It's an expanding load. I wanted to see your caliber pushing x weight at x velocity. I'm not really seeing what SD has to do with anything.

>357 Magnum didn't become popular because it was a good woods gun

Wrong.

Fuck court jannies.

Liberals courts will do this no matter what you use if they want you.

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60 grains to 230 grains yeah.

What the fuck is .38 casul.

I forgot to mention, a glock 20 with a 5.2 inch aftermarket barrel. An user here posted his chrono data.

Fake and gay wildcat that isnt even really available.

Your the worst of 9mm fags and 10mm fags combined

It appears my superiority has caused some controversy

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>missing the OAL point this hard
I'm just saying don't compare 4" autopistols with 4" revolvers just because they have the same number for barrel length. I don't give a fuck whether you compare 2" revolvers to 4" autopistols (both readily concealable) or if you compare 6" revolvers to 8" autopistols as the other guy did.

If you'd accept a 2" longer gun to get the benefit of a 4" revolver over a snubby, wouldn't you also be willing to consider a 2" longer pistol for the same benefits? So it's only fair to compare that 4" revolver to a 6" pistol.

>155 grain
Less SD than 125gr 0.355; fine for soft tissue, where total energy matters more than SD, but a dubious choice against barriers or at long range.

>180-220 grains
220gr is practically the same SD -- only 2% less.
180gr is 20% lower SD, does that not seem a little light to you?

>1500-1400 fps from an 8 inch barrel
I understand the 1500fps figure, since that's what your 180gr Magnum does from a 6" revolver. But since you're already comparing bullets with lower SD, if anything it should be faster to compensate, not up to 100fps slower.

>180 at 1400+1"
If 180gr is "close enough", then so is 147gr .357sig; I already showed you it has more SD than 180gr .400 bullets; DoubleTap lists it as 1250 fps from a 4" barrel, essentially matching that .357 Magnum load from a 2.5" barrel.
And, again, that's not enough. 20% lighter SD, same velocity -- not even close, really.

>Swampfox 200gr
>1325 from a stock 4.5 inch glock 20
vs 1351 from a 3" revolver.
A little closer, but still 10% short on SD, and essentially the same velocity.

Turns out small, high-pressure cartridges do poorly when you try to cram heavy bullets in them. Who knew.

>It's an expanding load.
If your expanding load expands when it touches a barrier, or while passing through 100 yards of air, you have a problem.
>I'm not really seeing what SD has to do with anything.
Exactly. Come back when you lrn2physics.

So you mean to tell me there are like 3 dopplegangers of me huh? Also I mean, it's a solid combo, compact, semi-auto 308 rifle, and a fucking 10mm glock, sounds like a pretty well rounded combo, which is why I want it lmao.

I was not thinking of SD, I was thinking of total energy.

If your name isnt Alex then theres 4 doppler gangers

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I fully admit .357 has a bit more SD. It also has much smaller expanded hollowpoints, and much less effective solid copper screwdriver meme bullets

Seems like a fair trade to me.

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