I believe that in a pistol gunfight nothing comes even close in importance than speed and shot placement. Give that, does it mean FN Five-Seven the optimal sidearm?
>compact 30-rnd mag, giving as many chances for a CNS hit (the only thing that actually "stops" an attacker) as possible >relatively low recoil and flash, allowing you to stay on target >good penetration, allowing for complete piercing of bone and organs and creating spacious wound cavities for more internal bleeding >easily defeats soft body armor and light cover
The only problem I see is the price. Are there cheaper, but similar alternatives?
Only certain projectiles will defeat armor, only certain projectiles penetrate adequately. The 28gr lead free, and the 40gr Vmax loads are fucking trash. You can forget about defeating any intermediate barriers while maintaining any sort of terminal performance with them. If you want 5.7 ammo that performs well you need SS109 or to handload your own.
Ukrainian, huh. Is it any good? Well, it sure penetrates better than any other pistol caliber. I'd rather have a low effect on target (and how low can a pierced heart or a spine be, really?) than not penetrate that body armor at all, if that's what I'm fighting for some reason.
>Well, it sure penetrates better than any other pistol caliber. lmao. No. 28gr lead free hits like 7" penetration from the FiveSeven pistol. The 40gr loads only surpass 12" penetration in bare gel. Throw any barriers in the way and it fails. Common duty cartridges don't have that problem. Again, if you want decent performing 5.7 SS190 is it. The only other alternative would be something like a 52gr BTSP loaded as hot as possible. Some Barnes bullets can still expand reliably at those velocities, but they're not ideal.
I meant penetrates body armor. None of the other calibers in your chart penetrate 3A body armor, at all.
Henry Bennett
In fucking correct. youtube.com/watch?v=VWlk1Y3bjZI In addition you can handload pretty much fucking anything with sabots to penetrate IIIA kevlar. 5.7 really offers nothing other than its 20 round mag, not 30 in a flush mag btw. Its larger than a Glock 17. Nothing about the gun can be described as compact. A Glock 17 with a mag extension and some copper meme bullets is a better choice for everything.
Thomas White
Is there a chart like this for FMJ?
Joshua Thomas
Not that I've ever seen. Though Fackler did some old school illustrations of military ball for 9mm and .45. They both penetrated like 25-26 inches in bare gel.
Chase Lewis
I know all about these meme cartidges. Steel 9x19, etc. Bullshit. A standard ballistic tip vanilla round out of a Five-Seven penetrates body armor like no other conventional round. And a purpose-built AP 5.7 will penetrate better than any other round, simply because it has a true spitzer bullet. What is easier - searching for and buying these meme steel/copper banned "armor-piercing" 9x19 rounds, or just using those that come out of the box with Five-Seven? And its 30-rounder only sticks a bit out of the pistol handle while any Glock magazines effectively make the grip 50% longer, which is unavoidable given the size of 9x19 cartridges.
Logan Carter
Brassfetcher and Ballistics By The Inch are great resources when it comes to cartridge performance. On youtube, there's ShootingTheBull who does really good in-depth penetration tests.
Christian Powell
You're grasping at straws, kid. Why are you even trying to shill the FiveseveN handgun when you don't own one? If you actually knew anything about them you wouldn't have gotten the mag capacity wrong. And no, the 30 round extended mag stick out of the grip pretty fucking far. Not just a little bit. It adds several inches to the grip. The grip that is already longer than a full size Glock's grip. Solid copper projectiles aren't fucking banned anywhere either, they're not considered "AP" either. 40gr Vmax 5.7 loads do not defeat IIIA armor either. The projectile deforms too readily and gets caught in the vest. The Vmax loads won't even defeat a LII vest. youtube.com/watch?v=gPIx15JkMU0
Stop talking out of your ass. Just stick to Call of Duty or whatever other dumbshit place you got your misguided info from.
MAIN POINT OF SELLING BELGIAN FIVE SEVEN PISTOL IS EXTREME PRICE OF WEAPON AND CARTRIDGE.
BELGIAN FIVE SEVEN IS WEAPON OF MAN WHO WEARS EXPENSIVE ITALIAN FASCIST SUIT OF HAND SEWING, DRIVE HUGE EXPENSIVE NAZI MERCEDES OF A.M.G. SHOP, SAIL ON MASSIVE YACHT TO GREEK ISLANDS. I THINK YOU GET PICTURE. BELGIAN FIVE SEVEN IS WEAPON THAT SAYS IS NO SUCH THING AS CONCERN OF MONEY.
FOR MAN WITHOUT EXPENSIVE SUIT, BIG BLACK MERCEDES, AND MASSIVE YACHT, BELGIAN FIVE SEVEN IS FOR PRETENDING OF BE RICH LIKE BLACK GANGSTER OF AMERICAN CITY WITH GOLD CHAINS OF LOW QUALITY AND JEWELS OF COLORED GLASS. WHEN YOU EXPLAIN USE OF BELGIAN FIVE SEVEN PISTOL IS ONLY FOR SHOOT MAN WITH BULLET VEST WITH CARTRIDGE ILLEGAL TO CIVILIAN, THIS MAN HAS NUCLEAR RAGE. WHOLE IDENTITY OF THIS MAN IS SPENT IN PRETEND PISTOL SHOWS HE IS RICH. IS VERY AMUSE.
FOR REST OF WORLD THERE IS 9 MILLIMETERS OF LUGER WHICH IS SAME WOUND FOR COST LESS.
Jordan Taylor
Have you actually seen a Glock 30-roud magazine? It's fucking gargantuan.
I dont know what's best but I keep my beretta in my nightstand I'm sure it would do the job
Austin Cox
>get proven wrong about literally everything >s-s-shut up lmao stick to your vidya, kid.
Nobody mentioned anything about 30 round Glock magazines, Jamarkis.
Nicholas Hernandez
Good post. I agree with the sentiment even tho your English is atrocious
Kevin Russell
You're the one who's grasping because you're too poor for anything other than a Glock. Glocks are fine guns, but there are things they can't do as well as 5.7, like armor penetration (with standard bullets) or having a high capacity magazine that's not a mile long.
Josiah Gomez
>A standard ballistic tip vanilla round out of a Five-Seven penetrates body armor like no other conventional round. Firstly, I'm not that guy, but
1) 5.7x28mm will perform significantly better than 9x19mm with soft body armor. However, if the guy is wearing hard body armor, you'll do just as well with an armor-piercing 9x19mm round.
2) You can't buy armor piercing handgun ammo in the US. This includes all the armor-piercing 5.7x28mm rounds, and all the armor piercing 9x19mm. The 5.7x28mm cartridges that the military uses cannot be legally purchased.
You need to either make your own, or use a non-armor piercing variant.
If you only use the stuff that's available to civilians, 5.7x28mm will only penetrate level 2 soft vests.
3) A FN-57 is already a big gun, which makes concealment difficult (for every day carry, at least). A 30 round magazine is going to make it even bigger. You're going to have to wear special clothing. Which is significantly restrictive on your lifestyle. Of course, if you like wearing baggy pants and big t-shirts, that's fine.
4) >CNS stop Most stops are not CNS stops. And shooting someone in the heart is going to stop them. It might take 10 seconds for them to lose enough blood pressure to collapse, but it will stop them.
Most people train to shoot at the center of mass. Unless you hit the spine behind the person's heart, you can't expect to get an effective CNS stop from a center of mass shot. You'll have to target their head, which is not a recommended target.
Kayden Adams
lol cry more, little kid.
>responding to copypasta
Joshua Lewis
>talk out of his ass about some meme cartridge >poorfag cope >presented with video where standard ballistic tip 5.7 easily pierces 3A armor while 9x19 and .45 bounce off >still making noize
You're the one who should shut up. You probably believe in stopping powah and hydromeme shock, fudd.
Nathan Barnes
>You can't buy armor piercing handgun ammo in the US
Like I said, ballistic tip does just fine against 3A. No need for AP ammo for Five-Seven, unlike with 9x19 guns. See video in
Adam Ward
You can in fact buy SS190 in the US, guy. There is no law against it. There is no law against purchasing ammo that defeats armor. The ATF's classification regarding what constitutes "armor piercing" is about what materials are used in its construction, not its performance on defeating kevlar.
You literally don't own a FiveseveN, you didn't even know that its factory flush mag was 20 rounds. I presented you ample proof of a readily available 9mm load defeating a IIIA panel. I also showed 40gr vmax 5.7 load failing to defeat a II panel. Paul Harrel shot a vest which was already beat to shit and had been shot multiple times prior.
40gr Vmax will not defeat an undamaged vest. Showing ammo slip through a compromised vest is full retard. Calling anyone else poor when you don't own the very thing you're trying to shill is hilarious. I bet you're a full blown NEET, little kid.
Liam Gutierrez
Whoops. New here. I actually do agree with it anyways
Jose Bailey
>b-b-b-but the vest was beat up! I-It's not a real test! Stop embarrasing yourself. And why are you still talking about the 30-round magazine not being flush with the grip? Of course it isn't flush. I never said it was, I said it was much shorter and compact than a 9x19 30-round magazine. You should get your eyes checked. >readily available 9mm load yeah, right
Jeremiah Barnes
You're the only one embarrassing yourself here, NEET. When a projectile hits a kevlar vest the fibers in the panel fray, come out of alignment in the weave. That weakens the vest. A vest once shot is compromised and doesn't provide the same level of protection. You don't know anything. All you're doing is talking out of your ass like a noguns underage kid obsessed with guns he sees in videogames.
Jonathan Evans
>the Glockist denial
Leo Price
Nice shitposting, NEET. Have fun with your pathetic troll thread.
Huh. I've seen videos of 5.7x28mm not penetrating IIIa body armor (see video I included). It must depend on the specific body armor. I certainly wouldn't conclude that 5.7x28mm will reliably penetrate IIIa body armor. And it certainly won't penetrate level III body armor.
>You can in fact buy SS190 in the US, guy. There is no law against it. FN doesn't sell SS190 to civilians. And it's legally classified as "armor-piercing", due to the steel inside the bullet.
You might be able to find some aftermarket stuff (originally, SS190 could only be fired in a rifle, so it could be legally purchased). But there is a limited supply, and you're not going to find a large, reliable source of SS190.
>There is no law against purchasing ammo that defeats armor. That's misleading or false.
>The ATF's classification regarding what constitutes "armor piercing" is about what materials are used in its construction, not its performance on defeating kevlar. Well, yeah. They don't conduct tests. I suppose you could potentially design a cartridge that doesn't qualify as "armor-piercing", but still can pierce level IIIa vests. However, the impetus is on you, to prove that the cartridge actually can pierce
Henry Gutierrez
FNH voluntarily pulled a bunch of loads off of the market due to some soccer mom group complaining. It was for PR purposes, not legal ones. SS190 is entirely legal to buy, and entirely capable of being fired out of the handgun. The fanboy forum is filled with people who have horded it and tested it for years. 9mm copper solids which penetrate IIIA panels are also entirely legal to buy. That isn't misleading. The ATF does not regulate ammo based on its performance.
Robert Price
Considering glock makes a goddamn glock in every caliber why the fuck is there no 5.7 glock brand glockity glock?
Cooper Adams
>The only problem I see is the price. Are there cheaper, but similar alternatives? Yes.
5.7x28mm is ballistically similar to 0.22 magnum. And you can get 30 rounds in a 0.22 magnum handgun.
You'll have less reliable ammo, and less penetration of body armor. But,
1. You aren't usually going to fight someone with body armor. And if they are wearing body armor, they're likely to be wearing level 3, which can stop any handgun bullet. The only people that regularly wear level 2 body armor are security guards and police. Are you going to be shooting security guards?
2. I'm guessing that you can find more reliable suppliers of 0.22 magnum ammo.
>good penetration, allowing for complete piercing of bone and organs and creating spacious wound cavities for more internal bleeding Totally false. 5.7x28mm has awful penetration. Considerably worse than any typical police handgun caliber (9mm, 10mm, 40 S&W, et cetera).
Matthew Adams
9x19 is the better option simply for the retained mass after passing through barriers such as auto glass, car doors, drywall, magazines, etc. It might have to do with the ammo used, but I've been told by dudes who actually shoot people with the P90 and MP7 that it consistently takes 15-20 rounds to incapacitate people. On top of all that 90gr solid copper 9x19 penetrates IIIa armor.
Sebastian Hughes
The cartridge is longer than would fit in their extended frame guns. It would require a whole new platform. People don't realize just how large the FiveseveN handgun is unless they hold one in person. Its taller than a Glock, wider, longer. In pretty much every dimension its a larger pistol.
.22TCM actually manages to be even worse than 5.7 which is pretty goddamn impressive. Given is max COAL and case length it has a pittance for bullet selection. 5.7 at least can seat some projectiles up to the 60gr range without issue. The .22 TCM spec mandates such a short ogive projectile that almost nothing out there works. You might as well put some 55gr M193 projectiles in a sabot and load them in ordinary 9mm brass.
>FNH voluntarily pulled a bunch of loads off of the market due to some soccer mom group complaining. 1) Is it going to come back? If not, then it's looking like an unreliable source.
>9mm copper solids which penetrate IIIA panels are also entirely legal to buy Will they penetrate hard panels? Or just soft?
Isaac Powell
And for the record 9mm can throw a 55gr .224 bullet to over 1725fps from a 4.5" barrel. 55gr FMJBT projectiles can defeat IIIA armor below 1050fps. So there you go. You have your armor piercing ammo.
Isaac Brooks
Nonsense.
>own AP rounds in America That's not what we said. We said "buy". So far as I understand,
1) It's legal to reload AP rounds, for your personal use.
2) It's legal to own AP rounds that you purchased before they were classified as AP rounds.
3) It's legal to give/donate AP rounds to people, if no money changes hands.
4) However, you can only manufacture & sell AP rounds if you have the appropriate license, and you may only sell to police and military. You cannot sell to consumers.
Jaxon Peterson
I want this so badly
Luis Ortiz
get a full size sw500 and shot placement will barely even matter anymore. pic related
>A standard ballistic tip vanilla round out of a Five-Seven penetrates body armor like no other conventional round Simply not true, SS197SR doesn't even reliably penetrate level II (in realistic tests) youtube.com/watch?v=gPIx15JkMU0 Dunno why you picked ballistic tips; at least SS195LF will penetrate level II, though it's stopped by IIIA. (Same as vanilla .357 SIG or spicy 9mm)
>And a purpose-built AP 5.7 is simply not available; even the LEO-only stuff (SS198LF and SS190) only pierces soft IIIA out of the FiveSeven, but can't touch IIIA plates, let alone level III.
Since the only way you'll get actual steel/tungsten-core AP 5.7x28 is buying actual AP .224 projectiles and loading your own, it seems perfectly reasonable to note that you can load those (with sabots), or similarly constructed projectiles, in other cartridges for a similarly absurd amount of effort.
>What is easier - searching for and buying these meme steel/copper banned "armor-piercing" 9x19 rounds, The solid copper rounds that defeat soft IIIA (same as SS198LF or SS190) are not banned like SS190, nor are they voluntarily restricted to "LEO only" like SS198LF is. They're somewhat more expensive, at $1/rd (Liberty CD or Fort Scott) to $1.50/rd (Underwood), but actually easier to get hold of. >or just using those that come out of the box with Five-Seven And barely penetrate level II?
Maybe start with this set of three videos -- you don't even need to watch the whole video, as results from each video are tabulated in its description. (Note that various 5.7x28 rounds are tried through both the FiveSeven and 16" PS90, so you may have to skim through the video to understand which results are relevant for handguns.) youtube.com/watch?v=PbhfMUU9QMc youtube.com/watch?v=hBcEf-4mET4 youtube.com/watch?v=69akpvc2mX4
Please don't tell us you think taping armor to a barrel is an appropriate test procedure.
ATF does consider SS190 to be AP handgun ammo as says. It's similar construction to M855 with a steel tip in front of a non-steel core; ATF claims the tip is the "core".
Of course, it's still legal for individuals to possess and to sell/trade privately; the AP handgun ammo rules are for FFLs.
Perhaps you're thinking of the other "LEO only" round SS198LF? This is an aluminum-core OTM with no steel in it, and is not considered AP handgun ammo by ATF; "civilian" sales are only restricted voluntarily (and not very effectively) by FN.
Austin Rogers
>defeat IIIA armor below 1050fps A 55 grain lead pew at 1050 fps? How?
Cameron Wright
Sectional density and small initial contact area. And it is jacketed, which gives it a lot more rigidity (to keep frontal area small) than plain lead, though somewhat less than solid copper.
>460mm Shit, and here I thought my 45mm Glock&Wesson was big.
Samuel Powell
45mm is some pussy ass bitch shit
Blake Walker
>They're somewhat more expensive, at $1/rd (Liberty CD or Fort Scott) to $1.50/rd (Underwood), but actually easier to get hold of.
Didn't realize googling "buy ss198lf" was that much of a barrier to entry for you. I've lived in 3 states and they've all carried ss198lf or 195lf before it. Never seen underwood on a shelf though.
Jose Jackson
Despite this thread devolving into a shitshow there has been a surprising amount of good info being tossed out.
