Is it true that wadcutter bullets loaded backwards (with the hollow end facing the front) are more effective than conventional hollowpoints? I've met some boomers who swear by it for self defense.
Also heard of people using normal wadcutters for self defense, what do you guys think?
Yeah
>I've met some boomers who swear by it for self defense.
How many of those boomers have shot anyone?
Wadcutters are retarded for self defense.
I can only imagine the round tumbling immediately from air resistance. Probably not worth the loss in velocity depending on distance.
This is literally an elmer keith thing, and yes, it sorta works, but be careful, because the nose of the round is going to reduce your capacity in the case and drive pressures up higher than normal
Yeah they expand a bit better, but if I'm gonna roll with wad cutters in a revolver, I'm better off going SWC and getting those hollowed out for a stable accurate projectile that wouldn't get me in legal trouble for "improperly reloading ammunition" when the prosecution goes up my urethra.
For the unarmored Redguard, a fat cylinder of lead is good enough to knock them on their ass. It's a cheaper way of keeping practice and fighting ammo the same, but even then 148 LRN does the same thing.
An old 38 spc trick before jacketed hollow-points. The skirt will rip off if it has to much velocity. Get a few water jugs and lower the charge until the bullet holds together. Cheep survival hollow-point, for zombies. I've tried it with a 357 mag loaded with 38 spc. Any low pressure round would work. 45 Colt, 45 ACP, 44 spc etc. Don't do this with 40 S&W or any high pressure round.
>boomers
>swear by it
hmmm..
>For the unarmored Redguard, a fat cylinder of lead is good enough to knock them on their ass
No it won't. It'll kill them, if you hit them in something vital. Just like any bullet.
>It's a cheaper way of keeping practice and fighting ammo the same
I dunno where you buy your ammo, but wadcutters aren't all that cheap. You can get cheap 9mm hollowpoints cheaper. If you're reloading you have better options available too.
It's 2019 gramps
Dont listen to fudds or boomers about anything.
They work better with low velocities, specifically a .38 special in a 1 7/8 barrel.
Push them too hard (FPS) and they don't penetrate very well (over expansion, fragmentations etc.).
Its not the pressure as much as the velocity IMO.
I have a 148 wadcutter mold and load these things by the thousands for cheap.
.38 can't be beat for cheap shooting.
>companies spend millions of dollars trying to perfect their hollowpoint designs
>nah i'll just do what some random old retard said
How many of you zoomers have ever shot anyone?
>muh self defense
All bullets are self defense bullets
Yeah, and some are worse at it than others. Thank you for playing. FMJ has put millions of people in the ground. That doesn't make it a good choice.
>Zoomer
Guess again.
Now that's a tripcode I haven't seen in a while
>dude boomers lol
>im not a zoomer though!
fucking WEW lad. instead of spouting newfag terms, come up with some actual info.
You know there's more than two generations, right? Like, we didn't go from boomers to zoomers with nothing inbetween?
Or do you not know that boomer doesn't literally mean anyone over the age of 30?
>come up with some actual info.
Ok, the actual info is wadcutters are cheap oldschool low velocity target ammo for boomers with .38's. They're not good for anything else. They can kill you, but they're probably the single worst tool for the job.
Wadcutters are really not that bad luckygunner.com
>not thinking a backwards wadcutter wont just roll over to the side with the least air resistants
>no expansion
>very low velocity
>meets FBI penetration requirements, sometimes
They're absolutely terrible.
If you're an arthritic grandmother whose wrists will literally shatter under recoil, and refuse to carry anything but a .38 snubnose, they might be ok. Or it'll wind up like this:
okcfox.com
Only morons use .38 for self defense. Only bigger morons use wadcutters. Can it work? Yes. Will it? No.
>How many of those boomers have shot anyone?
The practice originated in the NYPD stakeout squad in the 50's and 60's; at the time they had more shootings than the rest of the NYPD combined. It apparently works like a charm.
>what is rifling
It isnt a problem at self defense distances. The bigger issue is that hollow base wadcutter cant handle very much pressure, even full pressure 38 special levels is too much. OTOH they dont need much velocity to expand to the size of a silver dollar. Which they will do.
>muh anecdotes
I will take my follow up and less blast from wadcutters out of 38 rather than some big ass fireball that blows my eardrums out and barely provides increased effectiveness
Muh handgun caliber is a meme anyway, all handgun rounds are almost a tossup
it made sense before modern JHP. There's no reason to do it today.
I loaded some and they do flip a few feet from the muzzle and go off target
>and barely provides increased effectiveness
Better hope the guy isn't wearing a coat.
>Muh handgun caliber is a meme anyway, all handgun rounds are almost a tossup
Hollowpoint VS wadcutter isn't.
>I will take my follow up and less blast from wadcutters out of 38 rather than some big ass fireball that blows my eardrums out
Have another anecdote: I've shot M4s without hearing protection. Even that won't blow your eardrums out. Flashbangs are even louder than that. And they STILL won't blow your eardrums out.
Quit pretending it's the 1860s. The future isn't even now old man. The future was 118 years ago.
>Or do you not know that boomer doesn't literally mean anyone over the age of 30?
I tried having that argument in a different thread, couple days ago. I was informed that boomer is no longer a generational identifier, but a meme to be applied to anybody whose views don’t agree with yours.
>muh coat
Lmao nigger are you serious. Wadcutters get good penetration from every actual measure they're fine by me. I dont care if I get no expansion I'm not using backwards wadcutters.
>Wadcutters get good penetration
No, some get adequate penetration.
13-16 inches is fine by me. Any more is over penetration.
Which is in ballistics gel. Which does not adequately simulate hard surfaces, like bone, which will flatten out and seriously impede a low velocity lead projectile.
So as long as people where you live don't have ribs, you're good to go dude.
>muh bones
Go watch your meat target tests retard. The whole point is 12 inches in gel translates to good effectiveness on real targets, that's why its FBI standard. Out of a snub revolver wadcutters are fine and have really low blast and recoil.
Real-talk. Has anyone ever been prosecuted or tried in a court of law due to using handloaded ammo?
Like I cook my own SD rounds using the same brand case and bullet on the off chance it ever happened to me but is it actually a concern? I am skeptical.
>Go watch your meat target tests retard
I love how upset Paul makes retards
>The whole point is 12 inches in gel translates to good effectiveness on real targets
Wonder why they don't issue snubnose .38's to FBI agents. I think it had to do with them performing absolutely horribly and getting agents killed in shootouts. Hmm
>Out of a snub revolver wadcutters are fine and have really low blast and recoil.
Yeah, that's why people used them for target ammo back in the day. And why they're inadequate for self defense.
>muh Paul
Youre the retard user sorry. The truth hurts.
If youre too stupid to understand the purpose of gel and the importance of a consistent medium with actual repeatability youre beyond hope. You probably still believe in muh stoppin powah too and carry fuddy five AARP.
>If youre too stupid to understand the purpose of gel and the importance of a consistent medium with actual repeatability
Oh no, I get the point of it. You don't. It's for comparing multiple different rounds. It doesn't simulate what rounds do when they hit a person. It simulates soft tissue.
>You probably still believe in muh stoppin powah too and carry fuddy five
Incorrect. Like I told you, the future was 118 years ago. Georg Luger really had it figured out. .38 is woefully in adequate even with actual ammo, especially from a snubnose. Making it a wadcutter only makes things worse. It's like people who carry .380's with FMJ's, but worse.
I feel like its fud lore from the 1970s so there probably was a case of it happening which started the ball rolling.
And you can extrapolate what it does to a live target based on numerous comparisons done on effectiveness and how numbers and performance on gel translates to a real target.
And 38 from a snub isnt the most powerful, obviously, thats not the point. The point is once you sacrifice a lot for the size of a snub you also start getting into territory where HP have some issue with expansion and blast and recoil is already bad on snubs.
So you carry wadcutters because they are not as velocity dependant as HP, dont have to expand , have low recoil and low blast out of a snub
>And you can extrapolate what it does to a live target based on numerous comparisons done on effectiveness and how numbers and performance on gel translates to a real target.
Except that no matter how many gel tests you perform, it won't tell you that a .38 wadcutter will literally stop right at thick or sloping bone, and be nearly completely stopped by smaller ones.
>So you carry wadcutters because they are not as velocity dependant as HP, dont have to expand , have low recoil and low blast out of a snub
And in exchange get a round that will not stop the threat and will see you dead.
>bone stops lead
Okay buddy.
>stops the threat
So you want me to carry a rifle? This has been done over hundreds of times. Pistols are all inadequate compared to rifles no one is going to care about your hunk of steel 10mm shit you leave in your truck.
>Okay buddy.
it does! In fact, it stops low velocity soft lead pretty well.
>So you want me to carry a rifle?
No, I think you should probably just carry a compact 9mm with 15 hollowpoints in it, like everyone has for the past 30 years
No the practice of reversing bullets originated in WW1.
Also, are you shooting match wadcutters or goofy self defense/hunting ones? If not, you're not getting enough velocity to make the FBI standard. If you are, literally why are you spending .70cpr to $1.50 per round to shoot wadcutters?
Can't fit a 9mm 15 rounder in my fucking pocket now can I? 9mm in small guns is also annoying and snappy as fuck
White folks use holsters
Not all of my pants are sized up 2 inches to fit a holster and you're far more likely to always have a gun on you when its small.
I also use a holster if I pocket carry, a pocket holster....
>Suspect identified as Tyrone Lee
>Connected to least 10 other liquor store robberies in the area
>Sheeeeeeeeeiiiit
Looking through some searches, doesn't seem like there was any notable legal case. However theres a ton talking about repeatable ballistics for forensics (which I call BS since you'd reload more than 1 round to defend yourself), reliability of your reloads, and most importantly civil liability with the family/attorney of the assailant. It'd be better to just say "I used the 'personal defense' ammo I bought at Walmart/online." instead of trying to explain your reloading process to the court. Legally, the most you can convince people on your side in the least amount of words, the better.
No. The whole meme came from a 1978 magazine article written by a part time cop who speculated that an overzealous prosecutor might try to use it against you.
I wish I were joking. That's all there ever was. There's never been a case.
About what I figured but was too lazy to certify. Thanks for the spoonfeeding.
And yeah when I said I rolled my own, if I ever had to use them I would never admit I reloaded them..
I mean I don't think it would be possible to prove unless let's say for example I got in a shooting and had 2-3 rounds left over and the prosecutor had a wild hair up their ass idea that I loaded them myself.
They'd have to inspect and weigh the remaining rounds, pull the bullets and compare the powder weight, type, and composition to the exact factory load from Company X that I was emulating (but loaded hotter).. and prove that the company has never used any alternatives that could be approximate to my handloads.. just seems like waste of time/resources when all prosecutors want is plea deals because they're no work and look just as good as convictions..
The issue about repeatable ballistics is partly about proving what load you used, not just about there being other rounds from the same batch available.
If there's nickel-plated, Federal-headstamp brass at the scene, an HST recovered from the body, and the unfired ammo left in the gun (if any) is the same brass with HSTs sticking out the front, forensics can fire any old box of HST and be pretty close.
Or if they want to nail it down good, they can find the box of ammo at my house, and either test some of the leftover ammo in the box, or note the lot number, and try to find some from the same lot to test.
Whereas if I load my own shit in mixed headstamps, there's much more room for confusion. If I have several batches of similar-appearing ammo loaded to different specs, there's nothing but my say-so to prove the ammo I used was from this batch, not that batch. (Or for that matter, that I didn't load up six rounds of special stuff different from any batch I have at home.)
Ultimately, "much more room for confusion" shouldn't count against me -- if the prosecution can't prove that the ammo fired for forensics was similar to what I used, then the forensic results should be correspondingly discounted by the jury; it shouldn't be an issue. But it's better if forensics confirms your story and it never goes to trial rather than hoping the jury will do their fucking job.
There's one particular case (NJ vs. Daniel Bias, google it) where some dude loaded up some powderpuff wadcutters as a defensive load his wife could handle, she supposedly an heroed with them, and he went to jail.
(To be pedantic, he claims that he came in the room to see her holding the gun to her head, he tried to take it away from her, and it went off.)
Three cartridges and one empty casing were found in the revolver. (Apparently he kept it loaded with empty chambers under the hammer and up next, so it would take two pulls to fire.)
(contd)
No powder residue was found on the body. Forensics seized other (full-power) handloads from his garage, shot them at various distances for powder residue, and came to the conclusion that she had been shot from four feet away, and thus he was initially accused of murder for shooting her.
The court would not permit any of the three cartridges found in the gun to be test fired, or even disassembled to prove what powder charge they had been loaded with, because that would be destroying evidence.
After a succession of hung juries, and changes to the prosecution's argument, he was eventually convicted of reckless manslaughter, on the theory that he had pointed the gun at her and pulled the trigger, believing the gun would not fire on the first trigger pull.
On one hand, this case did happen, and it is possible that if he'd been shooting factory ammo he'd have been acquitted in the first trial, not convicted in the 4th trial 10 years later. (It's also possible he'd have been convicted -- frankly, I find his story a bit hard to swallow.) Even if it's an incredibly slim chance, may be worth thinking about. For example, if you load powder-puff wadcutters for plinking, and spicier ones for defense -- maybe it could be worth loading the defense loads in .357 brass and the others in .38 special.
On the other hand, this one case -- which isn't even about self-defense -- is basically the entire underpinning of the "no handloads for self-defense" crowd. I think they've got a couple other cases where someone was acquitted, but MIGHT never have gone to trial if not for handloads, or won the appeal, but MIGHT have been acquitted originally, but this is the only one where someone actually went to jail and handloads played a significant part.
It's up there with the Harold Fish case both for being an extremely unusual case, and for the way people will spin it as ALL ABOUT handloads/10mm, while in reality those were significant factors in both cases, but not the only ones.
Theyre pretty shit either way compared to modern SD ammo. Luckily for stupid boomers, putting a piece of lead in somebody center mass will usually do the trick.
A backwards wadcutter is the basic premise of federal HST 130gr .38 special. They just have a copper jacket and are scored to open up evenly and consistently. So a backwards wadcutter would just be a primitive or field expedient version of those. Regular wadcutters penetrate well with minimal recoil. The wide, sharp-edged meplat is thought by some to be superior to round nose or SWC against soft tissue, as it would cut through rather than push aside muscle or organs.