So I've got a M&P AR15, nothing fancy, but Ive got no real need for it. I don't hunt, and I don't like using scopes (so long range shooting isn't something I like). So I was thinking of swapping on an AR piston barrel, and I guess stock so the NFA doesn't shoot my dog.
How are they do shoot? Is the Pistol stock actually useful? Like say I wanted this to be my SHTF gun, would it be good for anything, or more of a "it looks cool, and fun to occasionally shoot" kind of gun?
1) if you live in the US then it is flat-out illegal to convert an existing rifle into a pistol. Your options are: -sell the rifle then buy an AR pistol or -file a Form 1 (NFA paperwork) and build an SBR.
They shoot great. The "pistol brace" works nearly as well as a proper stock does, at least for calibers you'd normally shoot from an AR pistol. I wouldn't want a shoulder brace for a .458 Socom, for example. For normal AR pistol calibers like 223, 9, 45, 300blk, etc, they work great.
Lincoln Reed
yeah.
Jose Flores
You can't manufacture a pistol out of an M&P 15 Sport II. That is a rifle. It would become a short barreled rifle, which requires a $200 tax stamp to manufacture.
You would need to build your pistol out of a pistol lower, or a lower that has never been assembled before and transferred as a firearm, other.
Jason Rodriguez
Yeah.
Thomas Sanchez
If you're going to do it, don't buy the shit ass brace in the pic.
I have a pistol and a rifle, in SHTF if I had to pick one I'd probably go with the pistol just because it is lighter and more compact.
Autists will tell you that 5.56 tickles your opponent unless your barrel is 16" or up. Not true, however 10.5 is the absolute cutoff, anything shorter and you are losing a lot of velocity.
My 10.5 gets decent groups at 50 yards, haven't taken it out to 100 yards yet.
Kayden Ward
blah, now IVE never done this but it rides a fine grey line. on paper yes, you shouldnt do this, but whos gonna fuckin know? unless youre pawning the gun every other week and getting it back and changing from rifle to pistol on 4473 forms ur gonna be fine.
this is ho 80% of the AR pistols on the used market came to be and ive never heard of anyone getting in trouble
Jose Parker
Woah dude you must feel hilarious !
KEK 111!!!!
Benjamin Nguyen
this is also bullshit, ive seen lowers transferred as rifles, only to be built into pistols, its not something an FFL even asks..
Carter Hill
yeah.
Samuel Cooper
Yeah.
Dylan Howard
>Autists will tell you that 5.56 tickles your opponent unless your barrel is 16" or up. Not true, however 10.5 is the absolute cutoff, anything shorter and you are losing a lot of velocity.
Also, .300 BBC has the same energy out of 10.5" as 5.56 NATO has out of 16", though at twice the price per round.
Jose Martinez
yeah,
Eli Evans
>I am a clueless retard that enjoys mouthing off
Okay.
Ian Moore
yeah.
Ayden Ortiz
>unless youre pawning the gun every other week and getting it back and changing from rifle to pistol on 4473 forms ur gonna be fine. thats not how it works you get arrested they run the serial its going to come back as whatever it left the factory as. if it left the factory as a rifle and its got a short barrel on it when they check it your fucked. dosent matter what you tried to transfer it as or if it has a stock/nostock your just fucked. you made an illegal sbr. if it left as an other then it can be whatever. if it left as a pistol its fine if its a pistol and its fine if its got a longerbarrel and stock on it too.
this is a california only thing since their form doesnt allow other. every other state has longgun/handgun/other ca is just handgun/longgun receivers should be sold as other
Leo Barnes
>I've seen people manufacture SBRs illegally
Congratulations. So have I. Doesn't mean it's not a ticket to Federal pound town if the wrong person notices.
Dominic Jones
>falling for the bait instead of just hitting the comment or ignoring it Yeah
Elijah Reed
Yes, you do that, Mr. ATF Man, and then arrest yourself for your illegal SBR.
Benjamin Parker
>its not something an FFL even asks.. It is actually part of the paperwork so make sure you tell them in the future. It's in the part that they fill out, not you.
Tyler Lee
>this is a california only thing since their form doesnt allow other.
No, it's because if they weren't DROSed as rifles, they'd be unsafe handguns, and therefore illegal to sell in California.
Isaac Ward
just curious, does the opposite apply equally?
pistol to rifle?
Nathan Jackson
Not that user but iirc pistol to rifle is fine, but you can't go back to pistol later. Once it has a stock on it it's either a rifle or an SBR depending on the barrel length.
Lincoln Hall
pistol to rifle and back to pistol is fine there was a ruling for thompson contenders about it key point being barrel goes on first stock after.
Connor Campbell
Pistol to rifle is legal. You can even go back to pistol again, because reasons.
State law may differ. For example, California allows pistol to rifle, but not returning to pistol.
Anthony Carter
Post a picture.
Evan Robinson
to reference how stupid the ATF is, as of 2011, its "FIRST a rifle, always a rilfe" instead of "ONCE a rifle, always a rifle"
techinally you can buy a lower, transfer it as other, build a pistol, then for the rest of your life you can switch it between a rifle and a pistol legally
but not the other way around, oh nonononono
Tyler Hughes
>lowers transferred as rifles Checking "long gun" at question 16 and/or writing "rifle" at question 27 on the 4473 for a lower is an error ("other firearm" and "receiver" are correct), but making a mistake on paperwork doesn't legally change the lower into a rifle; provided it's a virgin lower, or originally built into a non-rifle configuration, it can still be legally built into any legal configuration. It only becomes a rifle when it has both a stock and a barrel installed.
When you buy a complete factory rifle, however, it's already a rifle, and there's factory paperwork proving it was assembled that way when it left the factory. That means that it will always be either a "rifle" or "weapon made from a rifle"; either way, it will become an SBR if fitted with a barrel under 16", and in the (unlikely) event ATF ever catches you with it, they will likely be able to prove it.
The only way to legally go from a rifle configuration to a non-rifle configuration without becoming a "weapon made from a rifle" is if you're reverting the gun to a previous configuration (as opposed to "making" a new weapon from a rifle). In other words, if the receiver was first built as a pistol/firearm, you can then build it into a rifle, and then go back to pistol/firearm. (Used to be even this wasn't allowed; thank based Thompson-Center for suing ATF and winning.)
Ryan Cook
No, it doesn't. It's totally legal to convert a pistol into a rifle. But once it's a rifle you can't go back to a pistol. (though you could file the form 1 and make an SBR)
Jackson Lewis
>but not the other way around, oh nonononono
There's no maximum barrel length for a pistol, Federally. As long as you put the stock on last, every gun you ever assembled is a pistol.
Chase Carter
it doesnt matter what they should do, it what happens in real life. and it happens ALL THE TIME and i cant think of any notable instance where someone has gotten in trouble for this if the gun was seized in ANY legal configuration
Parker Ward
>but making a mistake on paperwork doesn't legally change the lower into a rifle Yeah, but how can you prove it was a mistake?
I harvested a 120ish lb wild boar at 150 yards with my 7.5 inch pistol build. Normal heart/lung vital shot dropped it in its tracks with a little flailing. Supposedly impossible to do (muh velocity). I use 65 grain Sierra gameking soft nose bullets, designed for medium size game animals. Works fine. Without a doubt my setup would be lethal on human targets out to 200 yards. If you have a red dot that's all the range you will have anyway. It suits my purposes as a concealable truck gun.
Eli Lewis
That's pretty fucking cool. I bought a stupid cheap shit upper because I thought I couldn't build it into a pistol. I'm still going to build a separate pistol but it's good to know I don't have to.
Sebastian Reyes
Factory records to start with. If you bought it from the FFL who botched the 4473, they probably botched their bound book too, so that may not be any help. But if you bought it elsewhere (internet) and the FFL only did the transfer, the seller's records, too; maybe your receipt/confirmation, if it has sufficient detail.
And, theoretically, you don't have to "prove" it as such; the government has to prove it really was a rifle. Since the government has no evidence but the botched 4473, all you need is enough to cast doubt on it; if the best you can do is throw things in a state of ambiguity where the manufacturer's and FFL's records disagree, and there's no way to know which one was mistaken, that SHOULD automatically go in your favor. But you're much better off avoiding the situation in the first place by looking over the FFL's part of a 4473 and refusing to sign it if there's an error like this.
Jace Parker
Yeah, you can get a lot done with short barrels if you pick the right ammo. Just because the military's stuck with fragmenting FMJ that doesn't work at SBR velocities doesn't mean we are.
Sebastian Lopez
Yeah
Adam Stewart
>And, theoretically, you don't have to "prove" it as such; the government has to prove it really was a rifle. Sure, but IRL the government calls one of their dog killers to the stand, establishes he's an expert by virtue of being paid to shoot dogs, and he swears up, down, and sideways that since the 4473 says rifle, it was a rifle, and in his professional, expert opinion, you're a lying shitbag felon.
Ethan Brown
Agreed. Imho a lot of the .223/5.56 phobia centers around using FMJ as a killing round, which it really isn't designed for. Modern hollow point, soft nose lead core, and polymer tipped expanding ammunition give it a lot more punch. I have killed numerous durr and hogs with my 18 inch out to 350 yards and feel comfortable using my 7.5 inch as a defensive "rifle" inside of 200. I went with ballistic advantage barrels so even my 7.5 is confirmed 1 MOA, which helps. That being said, I sold it to make a 10.5 inch build in the future to gain a little more distance than that. I think 10.5 inch is the best AR pistol length. There is a much larger velocity gain between 7.5 and 10.5 than there is 10.5 and say 14.5 as the curve levels out comparatively. 10.5 on a brace is still short enough to conceal under a jacket and maneuver inside a vehicle, while not suffering as badly on speed as the 7.5 inch. I built the pistol to use at my old job, where I was essentially a duffle bag boiled for a private ATM company. We transported cash in plain clothes and I wanted a little more HEAT style fyahpowah for the day when the jump out bois hit us at an intersection. Doing it again I'd build the 10.5, but anyone who says a 7.5 is a 50 yard only gun is a straight projecting mouth breather.
Blake Sanders
Can baffle strikes on suppressors when using barrels that are 7.5 inches or less be solved by just not using sub rounds?
Dominic Fisher
Built one, love it.
Took it shooting this weekend, lots of fun, little recoil, lots of noise.
Only issue was the amount of gas tossed into your face when you’ve got your head right next to the ejection port.
Probably gonna move the stock a click or two back, then it’ll be good.