What is Jow Forums's consensus on +p ammo?

>google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://gundata.org/images/fbi-handgun-ballistics.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiWpYCBt7HiAhVjHDQIHYeHDV8QFjAAegQIAxAB&usg=AOvVaw10DVrk4SswQsgAgCh-Cf28
Basically, A projectiles temporary wound cavity doesn't cause ANY extra damage unless the projectile is traveling at or faster than 2200FPS DURING ENTRY.
Not only that. Any damage from temporary wound cavitation of projectiles that do exceed that threshold is far surpassed by a bullet penetration deep enough to destroy a large blood vessel, which light fast bullets are incapable of.

Pictures of expanded hollow points are often referred as flowers.

I get that but like I said the design of the Xtreme Defender allows raial expansion of tissue to exceed bullet velocity and thus lowers that 2200fps requirement.

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That's not how it works, that claim is marketing wank.
This is medium tier physics, regardless of shape, at most the radial velocity coming off a projectile in a fluid is 10% the velocity of the projectile at point of the wave generation.
That 2200fps is that, because 220FPS is the damage threshold where a temporary wound cavity will start to exceed the elasticity of flesh. 2200 is a generous low number, for in reality a projectile needs to impact at much higher velocity to actually really do any extra damage. No matter what "bullet design" bullshit they spout, the projectile can not expand the temporary wound cavity faster than 10% its velocity.

OK sounds good then only carry Xtreme Defenders in 9x25 Dillon from a 7.25" glock 40 conversion going 2500fps?

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>cc a7. 25" barrel

He's saying all handgun ammo sucks just about equally and that caliber matters very little past a certain point.

>what is a shoulder holster
9x25 Dillon can achieve his magic 2200fps in a more concealable glock 20 and is the best choice for a self defense handgun.

This.
Unless you're carrying a big magnum revolver with a long barrel, handgun rounds are all equally trash as far as terminal ballistics go, might as well get something that can hold a lot of rounds and is easy to shoot.
Hell I'd run .380 over 9 if any company made a double stack .380 civvie legal gun.
And to the point about the super light rounds, the lack penetration so badly that causing a physical stoppage on an assailant is unlikely.

Again, 2200 FPS is the bare minimum to see ANY additional results, but the projectile must be going that speed at wave generation, meaning it will need to still be going that speed after leaving the barrel, and going through several inches of soft tissue, skin (skin is quite resistant) bone and clothing.

So a .357 sig xtreme defender is the best HD handgun caliber? Not objectively of course, but in general?

Are you samefagging like an asshole, or have you not read the thread?

Legitimate question, I read the thread but don't know who to trust on this site.

>damaging barrel with 20% more jouls when you could just use a weapon chambered in more powerful ammo
Rlly makes me think

Just carry AIWB. Everyone will think the printing is from your enormous dong.

I dunno bout the ammo, but your mother has a +penis shit hole and it works out great.

>he didn't buy an indestructible USP

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Try this for appendix carry.

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TIGHT TOLERANCES

FULL LENGTH GUIDE ROD

UNRELIABLE

Not only is it silly to apply a statement about fragmenting JHPs from the '80s to a completely different bullet design and mechanism, but your
>2200FPS
doesn't appear anywhere in that PDF. We all know you got that figure from a Lucky Gunner video.

>shape doesn't matter
If your theory were true, wound channels from XDs impacting below 2000 fps would look like wound channels from FMJ; a simple hole exhibiting no tearing from the stretch cavity.
Wound channels from Lehigh fluted bullets in real live animals DO show lots of tearing at velocities below 1200 fps:
gunstreamer.com/watch/lehigh-defense-lehigh-hunting-6th-night-last-chance-south-texas-feral-hogs-9mm-90gr-xtreme-defense-3_pYTHqqHMxkZ4zzl.html
Since the facts contradict your theory, your theory is simply wrong. Shape DOES matter IRL.

>And to the point about the super light rounds, the lack penetration so badly that causing a physical stoppage on an assailant is unlikely.
But that simply isn't true. Unlike JHPs, where beyond a certain point more velocity means more expansion/fragmentation, and less penetration, with fluted solids more velocity always means more penetration. So while light-for-caliber hollowpoints tend to underpenetrate, the 65gr Lehigh XD bullets are able to replace mass with velocity and retain penetration at the upper end of the 12" to 18" FBI standard -- and they get that same penetration through an unmatched variety of barriers.
youtube.com/watch?v=zx7ccBtLcNY (real gelatin, 2x sheetrock)
youtube.com/watch?v=Xa4DloY03F4 (clearballistics crap)

But if you don't like the 65gr for whatever reason, the 90gr version does just fine, too.

>gunstreamer.com/watch/lehigh-defense-lehigh-hunting-6th-night-last-chance-south-texas-feral-hogs-9mm-90gr-xtreme-defense-3_pYTHqqHMxkZ4zzl.html
This literally doesn't show anything other than a dude shooting a hog with a 9mm bullet. They try and extrapolate on "holy smokes dude look at that damage" when in reality there isn't anything new or unique here. The shape of the charge doesn't matter

>If your theory were true, wound channels from XDs impacting below 2000 fps would look like wound channels from FMJ; a simple hole exhibiting no tearing from the stretch cavity.
No they wouldn't stop making shit up. You're literally a benchshooter the same way benchracers exist on /o/ citing all the numbers and nonsense. You're the same guy from last thread shilling his 9x25 shit claiming its a rifle bullet out of a pistol.

It's a marketing meme.

shootingwithhobie.blogspot.com/2009/01/p-phenomenon-by-saxonpig.html

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This, even in paul harrell's videos he couldn't give a shit about +p extreme ammo shit because it doesn't do you any better than any regular hollowpoint.

>everyone who disagrees with me is one person
>citing numbers is bad
Okay retard.

>posts the same images and data from the last thread
>no I'm not the same guise :^)

If you rmeme ammo was the real deal it would be seeing adoption by lots of 3 and 4 letter agencies, mil trials, getting lots of press as people tested it and oohed and aaahed. you'd see the big boy ammo makers releasing their own designs to get in on the action.

You see none of that. Because all they're selling is memes.

>posts the same images
I have posted zero images in this thread.
Are you okay, retard?

>double stack .380 civvie legal gun
if you're in America then there are several.

Oh exactly, I think you quoted the wrong person btw.

This is why I pass up so many guns because they don't shoot common cartridges, I passed up so many 41mag revolvers purely because no one makes 41mag anymore and 44 magnum is far cheaper.

People picked up 6.5mm creedmoor and 6mm creedmoor because they actually had better performance in long distance shooting. People actually picked up 10mm way more because people like it so much. People picked up 300blk because it worked so well in what it was made for.

People ARENT picking up shit like 327mag or 9x25 or 224 valkyrie or even esoteric shit like 9x19 Super or 45acp Super or even older shit like 357 Super Mag or 38 Super because its all garbage and didn't do anything better than what already exists in the field today. Hell I can open my fucking hornady loading book and pick out all the calibers I can't buy readily anymore and are either still made by PPU or Remington or some other one off company that makes only that ammo. I really wonder why NO one picked up 357 automag. It was literally designed to be a 357 magnum cartridge with the rim removed for autoloaders but that didn't really happen and instead someone just made a gun that shoots regular rimmed 357 mag.

hell 9x25 was only made for IPSC events
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9×25mm_Dillon
just like every other wildcat cartridge was made for including the Super cartridges.

>if it was so great, everybody would be doing it
You know somebody said that about everything big right before it took off?
And on the other hand a lot of really stupid shit has become quite popular, mostly thanks to marketing (the science of exploiting human irrationality to make a buck).

Popularity is an incredibly poor proxy for quality/utility/etc.

>You know somebody said that about everything big right before it took off?

Well you just keep waiting for it to happen bro.

>And on the other hand a lot of really stupid shit has become quite popular, mostly thanks to marketing (the science of exploiting human irrationality to make a buck).

Yeah you can get some market share just by being clever with how you target larping faggots and morons(see the Chiappa Rhino), but you cannot force wide market adoption with memes alone.

NOT A SOLDIERS GUN?

Depending on your budget and how much you spend on range ammo, pic related is all you need. If anything, stick with 9mm. It's cheaper, which means more more practice ammo.

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>You know somebody said that about everything big right before it took off?
Oh yea but thats what every guy who buys a lottery ticket says "well the guy who won bought a lottery ticket"
>And on the other hand a lot of really stupid shit has become quite popular, mostly thanks to marketing (the science of exploiting human irrationality to make a buck).
not really, if anything whether a bullet becomes main stream today is because of the performance research done on things like 6.5mm or 300blk. 6.5 took off because it actually had a real advantage vs 308win. While you might say "well this is the same!" its not. 6.5mm was purpose driven to compete directly with 308 because 308 didn't have that great of a ballistic coefficient vs smaller bullets like 260 or 270. There was actually a lack of bullets that could effectively compete here. Meanwhile 9x25mm was literally just made for IPSC and metal silhouette shit. There wasn't a demand for something in this area especially in self defense which is already saturated to fuck.

...do you sincerely not trust Lehigh? Because my dude that's.... jesus fucking christ, man. They are THE bullet design people. If you don't trust their products, then I really don't have any answers for you.

Also just to follow up, 300blk took off because of demand for a 7.62x39 like cartridge without having to change ANYTHING outside of a barrel to an AR-15. Same mags, same receiver. There wasn't a cartridge that did all of this so 300blk filled a void.

>they are the bullet design people
And so is Hornady but I'm gonna trust hornady before a much smaller company with little experience. This is the same shit that /o/ goes through "oh many you wouldn't trust (small tune shop)? They're THE tune people" No I'd rather trust bigger names like Bren or IAG because they actually have more experience which is why they're so big.

This whole thing you're pushing is the same reason why 224 valkyrie isn't taking off. While it makes for a great smaller caliber precision cartridge, people aren't wild about it because 6mm creedmore already does what this one was made for.

In fact 9x25 got passed up because of its niche but 357sig is massively popular and follows the same logic, fancy that.

Oh yea and another reason why this won't take off is availability. The fact I can't find any cheap target ammo for this shit means I'm not buying a barrel for it, I'm not buying a gun for it, I'm not gonna buy reloading equipment for it, and I'm not gonna put any effort into it because I can effortlessly put in LESS EFFORT into having fun with 10mm

Is 9x25 still even remotely a thing?

Nope, its like any other wildcat, made for one reason then never caught on because something else already filled the niche.

Ranger SXT?

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I had recently read (on Jow Forums) that +p and +p+ defense rounds were actually unnecessary because most defense rounds were already already well tuned for penetration and desired performance. Bullshit, arguable, or true?

Most modern SD rounds are engineered to perform to FBI penetration standards so yeah that's basically true. You could have a case where an older design that's still on the market wouldn't necessarily be the best choice...like it was tested in a 5"bbl gun because it was designed before the explosion of the sub-compact segment of the market...but that's gonna be hard to do for anyone that's not an old boomer who has been using the same shit for 30 years now.

What if I want 10mm +p?

You have to buy a real man's gun that spins.

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I have one but it's in 38 special ;_;

buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=114

This shit screams, 180gr and like 1300-1400fps

I’m actually fine with no large numbers adopting my preferred nuclear 10mm XP’s. Feels like a sekrit club.

that just sounds like you're a hipster

That is a downright sexual gif

I’m looking forward to trying liberty civdef, would love a liberty type bullet in xp but will do with Underwood 110gr for now.

A hipster with a handheld laser cannon

>I’m looking forward to trying liberty civdef, would love a liberty type bullet in xp but will do with Underwood 110gr for now.
Sig makes a full power load IIRC targetsportsusa.com/sig-sauer-elite-performance-10mm-auto-ammo-180-gr-v-crown-jhp-e10mm1-20-p-54716.aspx

Jesus fuck that's dank

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and by "full power" I mean its not a 40sw load in a 10mm case, its actually the 10mm loads from the 90's

Buffalo Bore does TONS of stuff like this, its super potent

>buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=114
I think in one of these they load a 220gr bullet to like 1200fps which IIRC is like 45 super levels of shit.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smith_&_Wesson_Model_10

thesurvivalistblog.net/smith-and-wesson-model-10-review/

youtube.com/watch?v=EFYn5KChBvo

youtube.com/watch?v=WyuWY3NU3e8

gunbroker.com/Revolvers/search?PageSize=96&Sort=4&View=1&mfg=1000259&mo=3001877&Condition=4

www.thesixgunjournal.net/a-revolver-buyers-checklist/

youtube.com/watch?v=X1nu5SWdV4E

youtube.com/watch?v=gEHNZFTfSD8

youtube.com/watch?v=BaiGSDiaI_w

youtube.com/watch?v=CEHtRkyTe-0

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I guess I don't HAVE to pay rent this week...

buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=350

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>you will never fuck this

speer-ammo.com/products/ammunition/gold-dot/gold-dot-g2/24226

Thoughts? Muzzle velocity seems a little slow for 9mm

>9x25 was only made for IPSC events
Everyone knows that...
>just like every other wildcat cartridge was made for including the Super cartridges.
...but imagine being this retarded.

>.38 Super
Appeared in the '20s, I guess in anticipation of IPSC's advent in the '70s?
>.45 Super
Designed specifically to deliver better ballistics -- it's just .45 but faster.
Improved ballistics do help some shooting games (e.g. silhouette) but not IPSC; there's no benefit from going faster once you get past the major PF threshold, which is already comfortably below standard .45 ACP by design.
>.40 Super
Again designed for better ballistics.
>9mm Super
Newer wildcat from Tony Rumore, one of the guys behind .40 Super. (.40 Super necked down to .355") Surprise, surprise, this one's also about ballistics.

You can see the difference in the design as well.

9x25 is the single exception here, being designed with high capacity vs .38 Super; the idea is to use slower-than-normal powder to achieve the same ballistics (just over the major PF threshold) with same or lower peak pressure but more pressure at muzzle exit to feed the compensator. This approach was an interesting experiment, though it didn't seem particularly successful in the few years it was a reasonable option. It would have been interesting to see how it would have played out long term if not for the rule changes that made it obsolete for competition.

.38 Super and .45 Super have higher pressure limits, but the same or less capacity vs .38 ACP and .45 ACP (so no benefit for the slow-powder comp approach; you'll run out of powder space at the same point); they exist solely to get higher velocity.

.40 Super and 9mm Super are both high pressure, high capacity bottlenecks intended to maximize ballistics.

Attached: 9mm Super.png (480x339, 53K)

Anything that's not an HST is the wrong choice for 9mm.

Good in rounds where that little extra oomf won't be a disadvantage (like 9mm). Pointless in rounds that are already powerful.

Speer Gold Dot 124+P is used by countless law enforcement agencies. NYPD for example.

Is this what causes the "pink mist" phenomenon? The temporary cavity collapsing and farting blood out the entrance wound?

There's a reason for the warning. Top-breaks shoot loose based on recoil impulse (which hammers the lockup), not peak pressure.

Short barrels do handle it better than long ones, but I'd still think twice before shooting ammo the manufacturer specifically says not to. They aren't making any more of those.

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Everything you said only concurs with what I said, they're wildcats whose only purpose is to deviate from popular cartridges purely for improving a cartridge. Like all the others, 9x25 won't catch on.

Its basically just burning gel shit. The massive expansion and contraction causes a sudden jump in pressure and temperature which ignites the gel

So you're just going to pretendi you didn't claim that every wildcat, including "the Super cartridges", was made for IPSC.
You know we can scroll up and see the bullshit you posted, right?

I'm disappointed, but thank you for the explanation.

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I didn't claim every wildcat was made for IPSC. I said all of those wildcats never caught on because they had niches that were already saturated you obtuse fuck.

We can all see what you typed.

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Its literally a hyperbole you dumb fuck. You really couldn't connect the dots that 9x25 being developed for an IPSC was a NICHE JUST LIKE ALL THE OTHERS were developed FOR a niche and they didn't catch on. Stop being obtuse.

Pink mist is from rifle shots to the head. What you're seeing is "diesling". Gel is a petroleum product so when the temp cavity collapses it's compressing atomized gel(petroleum) and the air sucked in by the bullet and boom it acts like a cylinder in an engine.

As a Texfag, I identify with this picture.

Sometimes they are even counter productive. Especially when. They take a projectile engineered for standard pressures and give it a little extra mustard ( alot of +p is exactally this). HP expansion is velocity dependent so the higher velocity can cause expansion to happen too fast resulting in underperforming penetration.

Of course by that logic if a plus p load is topped with a denser less expansive hollow point the harder expanding slug can make better use of the extra velocity. So side by side, you might see an all other things being equal compairiosn between a standard and +p load where the standard HP performs better from the lower velocity shot. Conversely, if you do they same thing with a barrier penetrating design like a bonded HP you might see the standard velocity underperform by failing to open and , counterintuitively, over penetrating.

Also, and you might see this is some 147 grain 9mm loadings, you can see a 147 standard p load perform nicely out of a full size gun but have a tendency to ice pick from a subcompact. Here the extra pressure can help step the shorter barrel velocity up into that expansion envalope.

Read moar

not even that guy, but you DID claim they were all made for ipsc, regardless of whether or not you're right about their niche being co-competitive

Look, I know a hollowpoint will drop a motherfucker because that's what cops use. If I put HSTs in my gun, I can trust that they will work because it's a proven concept. Screwdriver tip bullets are new. They show great promise from testing, but they have no real world experience to support their claim of being the best. When they get picked up and start putting bodies in the morgue, I'll be a believer. Until then, I'm going to stick with what I know.

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The average muzzle velocity of 7.62x39 is 2400 fps. What you are saying is that an AK will not be able to cause permanent stretch cavitation past fifty fucking yards. Don't you think somebody would have noticed that 7.62x39 does less damage than a 9mm if Lucky Gunner's magic number was the only deciding factor?

+p for 38spl is good
+p for anything else doesn’t get you much more than non +p
also, +p is pretty unnecessary for any caliber, because shot placement, no pistol is better than rifles/shotguns, need to be accurate with your carry ammo and most people don’t practice with their +p carry ammo which probably hits somewhere other than their range ammo, increased wear on gun

>Hell I can open my fucking hornady loading book and pick out all the calibers I can't buy readily anymore
If you reload why would you care what people buy? I reload wildcat cartridges that no one makes ammo for because I want to and it is fun.

>Russia ends WWII with a subgun as the weapon their tactical doctrine was based around
>surprised when its' replacement is basically 9mm+

There's a reason they eventually caught up with the times and went to 5.45 anonbro.

If it’s not a snub then +P makes it on par with or better than 9mm.

factory +P 9mm is usually not very hot anyways

So you actually don't trust Lehigh and therefore you've tipped your hand as having zero fucking idea what you're talking about. They've been the industry for over 20 years, they're not some fly by night shop. They are adopted by larger groups and orgs, but in smaller numbers, because of cost involved.
I don't give a flying fuck what /o/ does, and it has zero relevance here. You're just trying to bring some sort of expertise from a different area to this, in the hopes that it adds to your credibility, it doesn't. You ask anyone. Fucking any single person in the industry who makes the highest end bullets you can possibly fire out of a gun, and the answer is Lehigh.
If you sincerely don't trust them, read about everything they make. You find me any review that says they underperform, and I'll eat my words. Almost all of their shit starts with gov contracts, if that matters to you as much as you say.
tl;dr, you're a brainlet and now everyone knows it, but you're going to continue to strut around like you've won. So let the strutting begin.

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>They are adopted by larger groups and orgs

sauce pls

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>So you actually don't trust Lehigh and therefore you've tipped your hand as having zero fucking idea what you're talking about. They've been the industry for over 20 years, they're not some fly by night shop. They are adopted by larger groups and orgs, but in smaller numbers, because of cost involved.

I've never seen anyone credible point to adoption of lehigh in any meaningful sense by a large LE or military organization. They make meme bullets for animal control. LE agencies buy Federal bonded, Speer Gold Dot, Federal HST, Winchester Ranger-T, etc. Even memey "tier-1" organizations like the Army SMU went with Barnes TSX for 5.56 and Federal EFMJ for .40

So basically, if you a carry a subcompact, its advisable to pack +p loads if youre shooting JHP or something with a dish nose and elastomer to ensure proper expansion and vice versa for full size pistols. Or am I oversimplifying?

Except that's still not what happened. Jesus motherfucking Christ I can't wait for summer to be over.