Tom Givens is an old ex-cop who teaches CHL courses in Memphis, TN. Old as in started Gun Sight with Jeff Cooper back in 1976 and his IPDA member number is A0008. Memphis apparently has a per-capita violent crime rate of 200% of Chicago. 65 of his CHL students have been involved in lethal force encounters. He makes it a point to debrief all of them afterwards.
Here are some of the statistics he's compiled from those 65 incidents:
> 62 survived, only 3 wounded, all recovered > 3 students did not have their weapon on them, and all three were killed after complying with an armed robber > 4 separate incidents that required more than 7 rounds (8, 10, 11, and 12 rounds respectively) > 54 attacked outside their home, 9 inside > 60 were attacked between 3-5 yards > Only 3 were attacked at contact distance > Only 2 beyond 15y > Majority of attacks were armed robbery > Nearly all outside the home were in parking lots > Over 50 incidents occurred between 6pm and 6am > Students had ~95% hit ratio (according to their own memory)
Students feedback:
> Not a single one needed a flashlight, all had sufficient lighting from parking lot or home lighting to see their sights > Majority wished their draw had been faster; turns out civilians are hesitant to per-emptively draw their pistol
This is neat, thanks man. I wonder what the students proximity to their car was. Makes me wonder if AR "pistols" and truck guns have any merit to them. Seeing as the majority of incidents happened in parking lots.
Ayden Wright
Guess that depends on how fast you can get in the cab/trunk when the guy draws his pistol at 5y.
Nathan Baker
>(8, 10, 11, and 12 rounds respectively) respective to what you dumb fucking nigger?
Sebastian Myers
To the 4 separate incidents that required more than 7 rounds, doublenigger
Alexander Sullivan
>65 of his CHL students have been involved in lethal force encounters.
I'm not surprised. Membawe isn't America. It's a little slice of Haiti under the American flag.
>civilians are hesitant to per-emptively draw their pistol
That's because if your "gut" is wrong about that guy in the hoodie and you draw, there are a hundred little old ladies with their "sailfoams" already out, ready to dial 911 and report the "crazy honky waving a gun and threatening a young brotha who din du nuffins" and you get the full Zimmerman/Goetz treatment, guaranteed.
Evan Powell
Ok you little shit. I’m gonna say this just once. When summer school starts, you will be there, taking whatever remedial thinking classes you need to pass to become a functioning human being, you wasted fuck. Turn the goddam phone off, put the fucking vape bullshit down and for just once in your useless life try to learn something.
>4 separate incidents that required more than 7 rounds (8, 10, 11, and 12 rounds respectively)
Isn't this at max 3rd grade levels of reading comprehension
Austin Sanchez
I wonder if all of those without a gun were outside of home. If not how were they without gun in their house? I'd imagine if they were they would be answering a door and the crim forced their way in at gun point.
Jaxson Thomas
>how were they without gun in their house?
complacency
Christian Cooper
Based of his interview, yes, all three were outside the home.
Ayden King
> 6 shots, point blank to the chest, of .45 long colt hollow points > followed up by 5 contact shots of 158gr .38 spc +p between the shoulder blades > player 3 has entered the game > 2 shots of honest to God .44 mag to the chest, still going > assumes he has body armor, tries to crush his pelvis, instead punctures his thigh and finally blows his knee out > Toxicology comes back not even legally inebriated > Guy still lives for 10 days Thanks for the nightmare. So much for the Dirty Harry bullshit.
There was a good study based on police data that actually argued that caliber didn't matter (so much) as there were no one-shot drops and shots needed to drop the bad guy were consistently from more than one to three or four.
Justin Scott
The body is crazy. I recall a police shooting where cops shoot a suspect through his truck with a 12g slug before he gets out and runs away and several police could see daylight through the wound. The perp still managed to run a distance before collapsing.
Andrew Ortiz
This is a good example of why handgun caliber arguments are fucking stupid and that lucky gunner vid that triggered all the caliber fags was right.
Owen Scott
Thanks for the info. Is there a link for this, wondering if there's more information. Will be in Memphis tomorrow and had considered not taking my ccw (crossing state lines). But now I think I will read up on Tennessee law and bring it.
> Nearly all outside the home were in parking lots
Why aren't there more faux parking lot training grounds?
Jose Collins
Why aren’t more people who carry guns aware of the patterns regarding violent crime/robberies? They happen adjacent to entrances and exits, just outside the safe areas where there would be witnesses. This is parking lots, bus station exits, bus stops, subway tunnels, bike paths etc. Criminal follow the same pattern as predatory animals. They strike where the concentration of prey is highest, along transit routes, but only when they can isolate a victim.
Unfortunately many (non gun owners) people are naive and unwilling to cause a scene when approached in a parking lot. I have extensively coached my wife to make a huge noisy scene if anyone ever starts walking to her in a parking lot. She knows that women who comply, and get in the car with the criminal, end up dead almost every time.
Nicholas Phillips
In 2017 in Ohio there was an incident where a state trooper pulled over a guy who turned out to have multiple felony warrants out for his arrest.
The bad guy had some kind of cheap .380 with six rounds in it. He got out of the car, produced the gun, and dumped all six at the cop, hitting him once in the neck. Cop later bled to death, but not without returning fire, shooting a Glock 22 to slidelock twice, expending 31 total rounds for at least 22 hits, at least 17 of which were to the body cavity. All were .40 caliber 180gr Gold Dot hollowpoints, which are top performers in every test and have a pretty good track record on the street. All exit wounds were ragged indicating expansion and several perfectly expanded bullets were recovered from the perp's body later.
The cop was able to call for backup before expiring. With sirens approaching, the bad guy, instead of getting back in the car to flee, fled on foot. He ran more than eight blocks--over half a mile--before the responding police officers were able to catch him and get cuffs on him. He was still fighting when they got him into the ambulance, then was still fighting when he got to the operating room, though he died during surgery.
And when the toxicology reports came back, the guy hadn't even been drinking. He just really, really, really didn't want to go back to jail.
Sometimes you can do everything right and still die. I doubt more bullets or bigger bullets from handguns could have made much difference here. Bad people sometimes absorb shotgun slugs, buckshot, and expanding centerfire rifle bullets and still stay on their feet fighting or running for a considerable amount of time. Some people are just that determined, I guess.
Dominic Campbell
Jow Forums isn't going to like it, but Lucas Botkin's range is.
Lincoln Campbell
>Will be in Memphis tomorrow
Why on Earth would anyone go to Memphis? If my job tried to send me there, I'd quit.
This is why if you really need to drop something, only a rifle or shotgun round will do. Pistols are comparatively, regardless of caliber, anemic shit.
Ayden Sanders
owning a car seem dangerous because everyone knows where to ambush you, move to a small european town where you can live without a car to be safe
>only a rifle or shotgun round will do Meanwhile, how many times do you hear about dinky white tail running 25-50y with double lung shots from .300 Win mag.
All these horror stories have me thinking it's CNS, aorta, or bust.
incorrect, as has been stated before, even massive penetrating wounds give inconsistent results. this is why, if you really need to drop something, you need to hit the CNS. Blood pressure is unreliable to stop the target in the short term. The only way to halt the attack, 100%, right fucking now, is a hit to the head or spine.
Everybody get to the range and practice more. Head shots within 15ft need to be automatic.
Grayson Wilson
If you watch the Bob Stasch vid linked above that's his exact training program. He shoots exclusively at 6" paper plates to simulate head shots. Made me feel good because that's what I'd been doing for years before I saw his vid.
Dylan Allen
I moved into that house and got ambushed by fucking Moomintrolls. They're mean little bastards.
Michael Diaz
I shoot 200 rounds a week. After warming up I do a minimum of 25 head shots at 10 yards. And I know I don't train enough.
Benjamin Hill
You're, no shit, probably in the top 20% of all gun owners by even practicing that much. Most gun owners don't go to the range 10 times a year.
Anthony Lopez
>tfw no good outdoor ranges to practice drills in There's a reason I don't go that often.
>tfw used to do exactly that >tfw embarrassed yourself at all the local ranges >tfw have gone shooting twice in the last 18 months i don't even bother carrying anymore since i can't do it at work and don't go outside otherwise at this point owning guns is more a liability than anything
Kevin Gray
There are gun owners and there are gun owners.
There is Grandma, who lives in a shitty neighborhood, whose grandkids finally convinced her to buy a gun to protect herself from crackheads and worse. It is unloaded, because she doesn't want to hurt anyone. It is in the bottom of the underwear drawer because she doesn't want the great-grandkids to find it when they come over for a visit. She has never loaded or fired it. She thinks guns are magic wands that just make bad people stop trying to hurt you and go away if you wave the magic talisman in the air. It is probably a Taurus Judge.
There is Jameel, who deals horse and rock from the adjacent apartment. He has a gun he bought out of the trunk of Tyrone's car for about tree fiddy. It's shiny and nickel plated, and dat beez phat, gnomesayin? It is stamped "JENNINGS .25 CALIBER" but Jameel can't read. He doesn't know how to load it or unloaded, nor what kind of "bullets" it uses. He has never fired it, but he is sure he'll be able to figure it out, in case one o' dem ill niggas comes creepin, gnomesayin?
There is Uncle Frank, who has a pre-64 Model 70 in .270, that he bought at Kresge's in 1958. He bought one box of ammo with it, and still has fourteen rounds in the box. Frank goes Oop Norf to "hunt deer" every fall, by which he means, to get away from his wife and sit in a shack and drink beer for a week. He hasn't fired the rifle since 1974. He doesn't approve of firearms designed after 1900, as a general rule. He considers himself a "sportsman."
And then there are people who actually train.
Even the guy you silently judge and mock at the range, holding his Hi-Point .380 sideways, "gangsta style," as he does mag dumps at silhouette targets ten feet downrange while his buddies take video with their "sailfoams," trains more than all of these brain donors put together, and is a better shot.
Go to the range this weekend. The life you save might be your own.
Henry Rogers
>> 4 separate incidents that required more than 7 rounds (8, 10, 11, and 12 rounds respectively) I’m a little skeptical here. Is it that the situation *required* more rounds, or just that the person *fired* more rounds? Getting spooked and magdumping when you didn’t really need to is something that I’d guess could easily happen in 4 out of 65 cases.
Angel Stewart
>Getting spooked and magdumping when you didn’t really need to
>implying that an individual member of a voluntary union of egoists wouldn't have better trigger control
>Getting spooked and magdumping when you didn’t really need to > In a thread where someone posted an interview where a suspect took 11 rounds to the chest, 2 of which were 44 mag, and kept coming Maybe they missed. Maybe they didn't. Either way, shoot until they stop trying to kill you.
Joseph Morgan
You don't understand what that word means you mouth breathing triplenigger. There's no reason those numbers need to be in any order as they don't individually refer to any aforementioned states, just the four as a whole.
Sebastian Gray
gf wants to check out the pink palace and there's a hattery I want to check out. Memphis is only a couple hours away, but I generally avoid it like the plague.
Connor Brown
I thought Tennessee was a relatively conservative state. Why does it permit a lawless hellzone like Memphis to persist under its administration? Why hasn't the National Guard been dispatched to clean out the thugs and gangbangers who make the city so dangerous and third-world?
Henry Jackson
Containment zone
Isaac Bennett
>All these horror stories have me thinking it's CNS, aorta, or bust. This is it. If you can't hit the brainstem for whatever reason your next best bet is to keep putting holes in the heart and lungs until the threat stops.
Cooper Baker
I laughed, user, even if no one else did.
Carson Wilson
Exactly. The rest of Tennessee is halfway decent to comfy.f The further East the better it is in my opinion and experience.
Jonathan Bailey
Knoxville and Chattanooga have serious animal control problems of their own. They aren't as bad as Membabwe yet, but give them a few more years.
I lived in Chattanooga for a while in the 90s. There were years when this town of under 150,000 people would have nearly one hundred murders--on a per capita basis, far worse than NY, Chicago, or LA in those years, nearly as bad as Atlanta or Detroit.
If you don't want to see animals, don't go to the zoo. This doesn't keep the animals from coming to you, of course. We used to segregate the animals from the rest of the population, but we don't do that any more, and civilization is collapsing as a result.
Michael Edwards
>dyersonbeale.com/ The grease is strained, and losses are topped off. Not a molecule is original by now.
