Gas or Diesel
Which one is actually the ultimate SHTF Jow Forums fuel when you actually want the off the grid/operating/prepping/kommando shit stuff?
Also which vehicle would fair better in terms of jack of all trade card deal in terms of versatility on the road?
If you have to ask, the answer is gas.
If you know what you're doing and youtube still exists after your imaginary SHTF fantasy and we're talking about an older diesel, and you have a magical parts cache for you car because fucking think about it there are way less diesel vehicles around than gas so parts are rarer, then a diesel is superior.
>flexible fuel options
>fucking infinite engine life
>can run without electricity after starting
but the downsides are also substantial
>oh fuck you ran out of fuel? I hope you have 20 minutes to get this bitch started
>oh, it's kinda cold out? I hope you have 20 minutes to get this bitch started
>battery is dead? 20 minutes. You know the drill.
>holy fuck you're telling me it's possible for a diesel engine to just keep running out of control and be impossible to shut off without finding a way to cut off fuel to the engine?
Doesn't gas have a shelf life?
Yes.
If things don't get better after 2 years, you better be prepared for some Fallout shit and which internal combustion engine to use will be the least of your worries.
Wood gassifier.
Might as well go full late-WW2 Germany and figure out how to make it run on coal slurry.
Pre 1990s diesels like the Ford/IH 6.9/7.3 have almost no electrical parts other than the glow plugs. No ECM/ computers or sensors.
They’re extremely robust and can run on a huge variety of fuels.
Gasoline engines can only run on volatile fuels with very low flashpoints like gasoline and alcohol.
Gasoline can last for a few years if properly treated and stored.
Diesel can last longer.
Your feet
Would only really help you if you lived near an area that stocks it or mines it. More useful would be a system you could run on any kind of oil you could make or scavenge.
Bicycle
The most reliable modern diesel is the 12 valve Cummins, which was found in ram diesel trucks from 84-98. "Cummins B Series engines. And diesel is more complicated. I'm a diesel mechanic and I get paid mre than case mechanics because diesel are harder to work on. Get a gasser. 6th or 7th gen civic, plus stock up on wear items, fluids, and get a parts car if you're prepping.
Neither
Electric vehicle (say a Rivian R1S) with a hard roof rack carrying solar-PV panels.
You guys are scavenging for fuel, I'll just get mine from the SUN!
Yes, but you can run a gas engine on alcohol. Make yourself a still.
To be fair you can also run diesel engines on fat or vegetable oil, but you're probably wasting more edible calories that way.
What you really want is JP8, but no civilian vehicle runs on it.
JP8 is literally refined kerosene with some additives to prevent corrosion and other shit. Civilian diesel engines, particularly older ones, will have no problem at all running on it.
This is correct
>Is fucked in winter and if it rains for a few days
>Rivian R1S
>range in meters
lmao my dads turbodiesel truck’s turbo ate itself once and the engine was going at full throttle after he turned the engine off. Injectors blew pretty soon after
Probably diesel, you can run diesel on oils, kerosene, etc. you can even reduce compression (not easy to do on the fly) with stuff like machined down pistons and shorter conrods etc to run low Flashpoint fuels.
It's not the fuel you gotta shut down in a runaway diesel, it's the air intake.
T. Only time I've seen my dad afraid was him choking the turbo with his hand and a rag, as the engine was hitting 6700 rpm.
Granted a diesel shouldn't run away if the piston rings are halfway decent. Also if you run a diesel engine dry of fuel, you gotta bleed the whole system.
Attempting to run a vehicle is a bad move in general. All you will do is make yourself a loud as fuck high value target and spend tons of time, effort, and resources keeping it on the road. Animals will flee from you before you even see them and bad guys will lie in wait to ambush you.
You could synthesize biodiesel using all kinds of refuse; lard, tallow, used oil et cetera and shit isn't even that high tech
good luck getting lye
bet you're going to try to leach woodash right?
>machined down pistons and shorter conrods etc to run low Flashpoint fuels
what the shit, i thought this was a shtf thread, aint nobody got time for that nigga
A flex-fuel gasoline engine. You can use ethanol in a pinch without worrying too much.
Finally the right answer
If you don’t have picrelated with a heated 400 gallon bulk tank in back with a mix of used motor oil and french fry grease, u ain’t gunna make it
Gas, common parts, easier to repair and wood gas or better yet charcoal gas is the only long term shtf fuel. Diesel requires chemicals you might not have. Pick the right engine and you can have near diesel durability.
Get a turbine car
>The A-831 could operate ondiesel fuel,unleaded gasoline,kerosene, andJP-4 jet fuel;leaded gasolinedamaged it.According to Chrysler, it could burn a variety of unusual fuels ranging fromfurnace oilandperfumetopeanutandsoybean oils.Mexican presidentAdolfo López Mateos ran one of the cars ontequilaafter Chrysler engineers confirmed that it would do so.
You can make diesel fuel and gas has a shelf life.
Dog power.
On top of that, if you have a manual transmission you can just roll the car down a hill with the right gear engaged to start the engine, or push the car till the engine starts.
>diesels are harder to work on
How so? Everything about a diesel is big and stupid simple compared to gasoline. Working on compact gasoline cars where you cant reach anything without taking other shit apart is what pisses me off
Being able to work metal would come in handy if shtf. Got a mill, lathe and a few welders back home. You name it, if ive got the the time I can make it
Depends how much Shit hits the fan.
Short term i would say deebul, Long term, gas.
In a short term scenario, im assuming there isnt TOTAL collapse, as in you cant just break in anywhere and take whatever you want, because theres still enough infrastructure and government to prosecute you later once shit clears up. As such, you would probably have to run off of whatever you have stored up, and if you run out, find kerosene or something.
The advantages of a deebul for this short term SHTF scenario is that you probably wont have to do much in the way of maintenance, and because they run more off of compression instead of fuel, theyre *comparatively* efficient, and you can leave them running for a long time without much consequence, if need be. And then of course theres the other advantages other anons mentioned.
For long term SHTF however, when govt/infrastructure no longer exists or no longer exists in your area (fallout shit), gas is definitely the answer.
Which at first sounds retarded. Gas gels up and becomes unusable after not too long. However, there are treatments that you can buy that can stabilize it for up to 2 years while its being stored. Then you can go where people wont think to look, like an airport, and steal the AVGAS. And after that, you can then use potent alcohol as a fuel, among various other things.
And of course, because gas vehicles are more plentiful, there will be more parts around to fix yours, if you got the know how.
Now, as for which vehicles specifically to use, is a whole other ballgame.
As long as it's a gas vehicle. In case anybody in this thread doesn't know, diesel vehicles don't work that way generally. You can try, but your glow plugs won't get hot enough to actually ignite the diesel, and then you're shit out of luck.
Glow plugs don't ignite diesel. They only exist to heat up the cylinder and block when it's cold. Diesel strictly ignites through heat and pressure of compression. Anything that can crank the engine can start the engine.
>Glow plugs don't ignite diesel
Depends. If your diesel is direct injection, it relies on those glow plugs.
>Anything that can crank the engine can start the engine.
As long as it's an older diesel, yes.
You are giving advice on a topic you clearly don’t understand
Stop it.
Try push starting almost any diesel vehicle made in the last 20 years.
All diesels are direct injected. "indirect" injected diesels just inject fuel into a small area of the combustion chamber instead of right on top of the piston. Indirect injection in a gas car injects fuel somewhere before the intake valve. There is no valve between the fuel injection in a diesel. Funny enough it's the indirect injection diesel that's more dependent on the glow plug for starting temperature of the chamber. It's also a more modern fairly uncommonsystem, most diesels are still just regular old direct injected.
You clearly have 0 knowledge on this subject.
This. Only civies think JP8 is some special fuel that needa special engines. Military uses it because it'll run in anything diesel or aviation so it cuts back on logistical issues.
>no, direct injection doesn't mean direct injection
hurf durf I'm not going to go full autist when the terminology exists. Did you know an AR isn't direct impingement either? No one cares.
>You clearly have 0 knowledge on this subject.
Go push start a diesel made in the last 20 years.
>push-starts a Hardbody/Frontier/Terrano
heh, nothing personnel, kid
Been there done that. The hard part is that most diesel vehicles weight a fuck ton, which isn't easy to push much less push start, when compression is working against you. But it is absolutely doable. In fact the biggest problem that a no nothing nigger like you missed is that unless you have a old valved diesel, with mechanical fuel pump, your electronic injectors and your electronic fuel pump both need at least a somewhat functioning battery to have the pressure needed to work.
Its OK to be wrong user, you where wrong about di being dependent on the glow plug when it's actually indirect injection that's dependent. You where wrong about glow plugs igniting diesel and you're wrong about not being able to push start a diesel. It's not 'no one cares' it's you're wrong. Just stop posting.
To add on, if the head is cold you can use a heat gun to warm up a cylinder or two. If it's a nice day you can use the sun, bonus points for using some aluminum to focus the heat onto the head. We're also used propane torches, and acetylene. Just gotta get the head warmed up. I read on a forum of some guy with dead fuses to the plugs using his campfire to warm the head and cranking it over.
Steam, but who the hell has a steam engine lying around.
Diesel can use cooking oil and was originally engineered for peanut oil. It's also more fuel efficient.
Are you talking bikes or walking?
Although JP-5 would be slightly safer due to the higher flash point.
>who the hell has a steam engine lying around.
Air compressor my dude
This is the correct answer.
Asians have figured out how to run wood gasifiers on rice hulls, so I'm pretty sure with enough work you could run the fuckers on dry leaves, bamboo, or dried algae.
Fuel economy isn't great, but the shit's everywhere and the leftover ash makes good fertilizer or feedstock for making your own potash.
Main downside is, can't use it with pine or eucalyptus if you're on the Best Coast. Too much tar.
>Both are air pistons
In theory, yes. In practice you need a mechanism to release the pressure from the piston once it's at full stroke.
It would be really crude, but you could just drill a few holes in the cylinder where the piston would clear them at bdc
They can be converted but who is to say how long it will last. Plus they require a special oil that's not exactly common anymore. The only long term shtf fuel is wood gas, specifically charcoal because of its purity and run time and natural gas if you live near a gas well (couple miles). FYI, natural gas only needs electric for pumping if it's far away. Natural gas flows on its own pressure from 1 psi to hundreds so it can travel far via pipeline on its own. Just gotta seal off leaks and undesirable users.
The best would be e85 “flex fuel” cars that can run on pure gas or ethanol if you want. Ethanol will be a much easier fuel to refine if shtf. If you’re going full off-grid, anyone can learn to ferment and distill just about anything starchy into usable fuel. However, I’ve heard you can run Diesel engines on things like camp fuel if you’re in a pinch, but that could be a rumor.
Camp fuel is low octane, lacks fuel additives and would likely ruin the engine from all the spark knock. Fermenting and distilling could work but it depends on the engine. Ethanol on its own is s good fuel if the engine is designed for it. Hard on seals, filters,lines and can heat up the engine. Jerusalem artichokes don't require yeast. They naturally ferment and grow like fucking weeds, seriously plant them away from everything else.
>bet you're going to try to leach woodash right?
It’s not rocket science. Screen and filter the leachate, then evap it down to a dry precipitate. Reconstitute a measured amount of precipitate with a measured amount of filtered or distilled water, test the solution with a pH tester or test strips, add water or precipitate to hit the range you’re looking for.
All that being said, the only thing biodiesel should be used for post-shtf is running a genset for 20 or so hours per week. Run a bunch of freezers full of gallon jugs of water, those go into iceboxes for rudimentary refrigeration. The archivist, librarian, and data retrievers also get a few hours of run time to print out any critical info that they may come across. Transport and ag vehicles can run just fine on wood gas.
Wouldn't a small micro turbine generator paired with an electric vehicle/plug in hybrid make the most sense?
>will run on anything
>very low maintenance
>can use for general power needs
>EV runs quiet
>can take the turbine with you for long trips.
This is the only acceptable form of transportation in a true SHTF.
perhaps not the only acceptable form.
Because diesels have a shitload of auxiliary systems that are considered "maintenance-free" (fuel filters) or even not present (water separators) on most modern gas engines.
You're probably aware, but open up any 3/4-ton or 1-ton diesel truck and you're greeted with a tangled mess of hoses, lines, wires, cables, modules.
Look at most gas cars (non-compacts) and generally there's more room to work, everything's fairly visible. Obviously German cars are a maintenance mess and "luxury" brands like Lexus love to hide shit under useless plastic. A few other notorious examples like some Hondas and Rams are pretty bad from a light maintenance perspective.
Also, virtually every diesel motor is turbocharged. While an increasing number of gas motors are also turbo'd, many, particularly larger I4s, V6s, and V8s, are still naturally aspirated. While this has its pros and cons, from a maintenance and time point of view, a naturally aspirated engine is simpler, easier to work on, and less likely to develop certain problems that usually occur with forced induction.
>PEDAL POWER
This, I can literally sit in my c1500 engine bay.
Also when my Geo metro finally dies I plan on engine swapping a Volkswagen engine in. Very simple and easy to work on. Basically an upsized lawnmower engine that you can completely rebuild in 8 hours.
Depends on what you mean by
>jack of all trade
Because there is no one correct answer.
Basically your needs can be split into one of two groups: light and heavy transport.
>Light transport, eg. jeeps, Humvees
These typically use gas motors because they're more useful and convenient for shorter trips and smaller loads. Carrying a few guys with their gear and supplies can be done easily with gas engines, and are less maintenance-heavy than diesel motors. Gas engines are better in "severe" driving conditions (eg. cold starts, short trips, stop-start driving) and usually have wider power bands that allow them to have more immediate control over their speed.
>Heavy transport, eg. trucks
If you need something with a lot of grunt or if you're hauling long distances constantly, a diesel is better suited for that. Technically a turboshaft would be even better but it would be expensive and generates more heat.
Between the two, gas motors will fit virtually all of your SHTF needs, diesels are better for established logistical networks where you have long-range heavy transport that needs hauling. And especially if you're one or maybe a handful of Jow Forumsommandos innawoods LARPing, a diesel truck isn't going to do anything that a jeep or light-duty pickup won't do better and cheaper.
Stock Volks trans, or are you gonna build an adaptor for the Geo's transaxle?
>iceboxes
Shit, this just reminds me of Project Zomboid and how hard the devs whine when people come up with easy, straightforward ways to survive the zombie apocalypse.
Of course it's hard when you don't implement anything common-sense. And you wonder why Hydrocraft is so popular.
Probably an adapter. Haven't decided yet. Grandpa rebuilds them for airplanes and a pie buggy he is working on. Gave me one. You can rebuild one completely for about 500 bucks.
Which one?
The Type 1800 runs about 76bhp tops, stock. The Suzuki G10 can make 50-113. Your Geo may become a bit of a pig with the Volks engine unless you make some mods; I'm not super familiar with Volks modding but the community for them is full of boomers trying to buy the Woodstock trip they skipped to go to business school and the people ripping them off, so keep your eyes open.
To be honest, it's not a bad option at all if you can afford it. Electric requires less maintenance, and it's a shit ton quieter than gas and diesel.
Most people don't understand that the point of surviving SHTF situations and bugging out means getting away from people and conflicts and not being seen or heard.
Stabilized and properly stored ethanol-free gas will be good for years.
Sceptre MFCs are the patrician choice in portable storage containers. Unlike metal jerry cans in a fire they will melt but not explode
Probably the Flintstones method. Sometimes you just gotta do what you Yabba Dabba Do
When these come out, they'll be a pretty good option.
>tactical lycra
47 hp, type 2 I think. Not at my house at the moment.
You might get 5-10 miles of range per day in the summer, most electric cars consume 180-400 watt hours per mile. Eventually that battery pack will wear out.
A horse.
also for all those shortfags yu can get a mustang horse AND youll get 1k. Only shortfags should get a mustang because they usually are 14-15 hands.
cbsnews.com
Battery packs have don't last forever, the fact it's solar would be obvious so expect a lot of attention possibly of the I want it! variety. Hopefully recovery would happen before your battery pack gave out. If you get a home charging station (that can draw from your house solar) and a house with solar be prepared to defend your house and your car. If your solar car battery is common you could probably salvage battery packs from other vehicles of the same manufacturer.
hell yes
but no one's going to have a stupid solar car, so that doesn't help you.
It's actually more of a downsized aircraft motor. It's built like most air-cooled aircraft flats are built. Good engine, but remember it technically requires a rehaul at the 300,000 kms, it's also not very powerful but the tork is good. Oh and cylinder 3, fuck cylinder 3. Get an external oil cooler.
Took this pic a few days ago, she's a H series so 1.5 liter rebuilt to a 1.6 liter. Can't do too much because she's a single pressure relief with single intake port and it's not worth the time and effort. I plan on building a custom off road buggy thing with it but for now she's just sitting for me to have time. She does run though, ran for a full 10 minutes in my basement before it got smokey and I took a few things off for storage and easier to move. These things are light but I need a friend to get it out of there. I also need to get the the wiring diagram right.
Cooling is gonna be a concern your airflow needs to be thought out or you're gonna have a bad time.
Hp is not the vws specialty. But with a double carb or efi set up, and duel port heads and a couple other improvements (most don't need a full disassembly) you can make easy 100 hp by 5500 rpm. But I would recommend going for 1.8 or 2l stroker at that point and building from ground up.
Did someone just copy a Defender?
Listen to this dude, he knows more than I do.
That said, from what little I know about Volks (from reading a bus build thread on Something Awful) double carbs are an ABSOLUTE WHORE to time and sync.
I run all of mine on waste oil and garbage sump avgas
a thousand gallons in and no downsides but for white smoke at idle
btw forgot to mention no fucking veg oil
shit congeals in your injection pump and anywhere it leaks (which is everywhere on a diesel)
fucks shit up, stick with petro oils
I was also considering using it as a natural gas generator but an alternator instead of a generator head. 24 volts, 100 amps. I live off grid with solar so I need a way to charge my batteries. My inverter makes better power than most generators so direct DC makes sense, might run it 1200 rpm.
>patricians choice
>not an oxygen barrier
Choose one
Stirling engine master race.
Less efficient, sure, but a heck of a lot safer, and it should last longer without wearing out parts.
Im honestly surprised that you are the only person who suggested horses in this thread, they do have upsides like being relatively quiet when on the move like, mostly easy to maintain just got to make sure they don't get sick or break a limb, they can also graze some to help reduce the amount of hay needed to feed them plus the shit can be used as fertilizer and can be used in wattle and daub construction in place of hay, they can take you where cars will have trouble getting, the downsides are horses take skill to utilize and to train properly, if they have a catastrophic limb break ie the bone basically exploded then you and the horse are fucked tho a break isn't an instant death sentence if it isn't super bad and you have access to a veterinarian, if your horse has bad hooves you will need a ferrier or have those skills. also Norwegian fjord horses are qt3.14s
forgot to add hoof maintenance in the begging and brushing
both are shit for long term. propane gas is good but storage is a pain
They're not too awful if you spend the money on a synchronization tool (airflow meter). But duel carbs are not for the faint of heart in any car. Sometimes I get called to help out people with theirs and be it v8 or straight six, more than 1 carb is objectively that many times the complexity. But the power is sweet. Carbs actually make more power than fuel injection because carbs let the engine have what it wants, injection gives the engine what it needs. If you want you can do a double barrel carb in the center and it would be inferior to duels but it's gonna be miles ahead of the solex the vws came with. The carburetor is the single best upgrade to make on the vws, those Germans just didn't want the engine to breath too much.
That's not a bad idea, you can get high output alternators with kits no problem. I wouldn't recommend sticking to DC, the generators are finicky and they can destroy themselves if they get too hot. They're literally backwards motors with none of the cooling. Alternators are better than generators, the one in my pic has a generator because it's worked fine and it polarized fine, but alts last longer and are less finicky. I would just recommend having a full vw engine with a large generator, keep it stationary. These engines love getting to like 3000 rpm and staying there forever. Only issue with stationary operating is cooling, but you can easily attach a fan to the fly wheel or accessory side and keep it cool. Plus these things are fairly light, with a frame, alt and a couple accessories 2 or 3 friends can lift it or you can roll it around.
My dad grew up running heavy equipment in the mountains back in the 70’s.
They would park a few pieces of heavy equipment on hills and would “light a fire under it” (actually build a small fire under the engine) to warm them up, then push them down the hill to start them, then use those running prices to push start everything else.
>itt: seething groundcucks
see ya from the clouds, boys
Nothing personnel
The ultimate shtf option is used frier oil and bio-diesel. You can raid every fast food place.
>holy fuck you're telling me it's possible for a diesel engine to just keep running out of control and be impossible to shut off
>clutch
>hand brake on
>brake floor
>gear top
>drop
steam piston, boiler burns all
youtube.com
>engine has massive torks
>chugs off
Yea that sounds about right, anything you can do to warm up the engine will get a diesel going. Hell, soviets just used compressed air for emergency starting.
T. Never experienced the panic of a runaway diesel.
The engine literally starts burning its own oil as fuel. And unless we're talking about your little jetta It also has all the torque in the world to pull you around. Your only hope is to plug the air intake.
>compressed air for emergency starting.
That’s how Fairbanks-Morse marine diesels are started, too.
Its how almost all high speed marine diesels are started.