So my only two rifles are a SKS and a AR15 and before any bans or societal upheavals happen I want to save up for some powerful long range rifle, which uses a cartridge common in my area. I'm told .30-30, .30-06, .308 and .45-70 are most common here, and the last two are most powerful so it's a final choice between them. Pic related are the absolute cheapest rifles I could find of each of them, which I could reasonable save up for with my shit job. I'm also factoring FFL costs and the scope it'll need.
Based on Jow Forums posts I've read, the pros of .308 are that it flies farther, flatter and faster than a lot of stuff, can penetrate the lowest grade armors and can most certainly take deer or elk humanely. It's common at the moment too. The cons are that newer stuff (6.5 creedmore or something?) make it obsolete so in coming conflicts militarys will use it less and less, and out of all the semi-auto .308s I can find, none of them are cheap, and the bolt guns that take magazines are generally not cheap either.
Also according to Jow Forums posts I remember about .45-70, the pros are there is nothing on this planet that it won't kill. It'll kill the shit out of any wild animal and if the dinosaurs come back it'll kill them too. It'll fuck it's way through an armored socialist and probably the guy behind him too. It's easy to reload (not that I have reloading tools). The cons are it's not nearly as common or easy to obtain at other things like .308, and since it's so heavy it drops like a rock, it'll travel a ways, but not like .308 would. There aren't any semi-autos and the level actions seem to start at 550 bucks.
So these are what I think my options are. Are they at least mostly correct? Which path should I take?
Yes, it is an effective hunting round. Armor piercing? Lolno, 308 is much better, 45-70 has lower velocity and much worse sectional density. It's the opposite of what you want if you want to engage armor.
>Which path should I take? It sounds like you don't have a clear purpose in mind and you just want to get something just because. 308 is easily the more practical choice there.
Thomas Johnson
this and, if there was a metric for how obsolite something 45-70 would far surpass 308 in obsolite units. Also, OP, 30-06 is more powerful than 308.
Julian Long
Neither of those rifles will likely be more accurate than your AR15 or maybe AK too. Just get a savage in 308. Theyre recommended all the time to the poor for a reason. Very solid choice for the money.
Jaxson Watson
4570 is neat, but I would go for the CVA Scout V2 it if were me.
>Also, OP, 30-06 is more powerful than 308. Oh really? I was just told it absolutely was not. So should I be ignoring my .308 VS .45-70 plans all together and just save for a budget .30-60 rifle instead? Or are there reasons not to use .30-06? My direction is that I know I should, in my collection, have a longer range and more powerful weapon. I'm trying to narrow down which cartridge to go with so I can choose a rifle to save for.
Ayden Garcia
>Oh really? I was just told it absolutely was not. Feel free to look up the muzzle energy numbers for yourself. 30-06 is slightly more powerful than 308.
I'd take a 308 over 30-06. The ammo for both is common, but you'll have more options for 308 because of NATO milsurp. The difference in power is minor. 30-06 is technically better but not by much. You will also have more rifle options in 308 because it uses a shorter length action.
>My direction is that I know I should, in my collection, have a longer range and more powerful weapon. 45-70 is not a long range cartridge. If you want a longer range weapon I have no idea why you're even considering 45-70.
Oliver Ramirez
>was just told it absolutely was not You need to stop taking advice from this individual Watch for Savage to start running rebates on Axis XP packages. They usually do just before deer season opens. Pick you up a 308 Axis 2 scope package and be done with it.
Jaxson Ramirez
>45-70 is not a long range cartridge
Grayson Green
It will travel far if that's what you're asking, but it's certainly not what people have in mind when they're talking about "shooting long range". Generally you want to avoid rounds with rainbow trajectories and horrible ballistic coefficients when shooting long range.
Colton Mitchell
>rainbow trajectories I've never heard that one before.
Ethan Watson
>45-70 is not a long range cartridge. If you want a longer range weapon I have no idea why you're even considering 45-70. I've always thought it was used to great effect for hunting bears.
David Torres
How do you think most bear hunts go
Isaac Ward
...with a non-zero amount of dead bears?
Jacob Hill
Typically bear hunting isn't long range user, 45-70 is used because it's good at putting a lot of mass into something close in
Ethan Bennett
Not to derail, but can someone explain to me the fascination with buying guns pre ban? They won't be grandfathered in, are you really going to drop 300 on a gun just so you can stare at it in your basement?
Parker Stewart
It is. Bears are usually shot at very close distances.
Jordan Hernandez
go for .308, but honestly for 30 bucks more you can get a thompson compass that's a sub MOA gun, is free floated and has 5x the firepower of a CVA single shot while being much more precise.
seriously bruv
Levi Price
Usually guns *are* grandfathered in in the case of bans....at least that's been the status quo in the US thus far, generally speaking anyway.
Guns & mags were grandfathered in during the 1994 AWB, there were registration amnesties for machine guns in the past, etc.
Michael Edwards
45-70 can be used to shoot long range, but the lower velocity and large amount of drop at that range makes it inferior to the higher velocity bottleneck cartridges like 308 and 30-06. If long range is an intended use of this rifle, go with a bottleneck cartridge.
William Davis
bottleneck isn't the problem. The problem is 45-70 is a flat nose lead projectile most of the time that is aerodynamically a brick. what matters more is bullet profile which .308 and .30-06 or pretty much any rifle cartridge designed within the last 120 years have a benefit using a spitzer, or pointed bullet
Nathan Parker
You're correct that the bottleneck case isn't the determining factor, but it also happens to be true that bottlenecked cases tend to correlate very well to spitzer bullets.
>308 and .30-06 or pretty much any rifle cartridge designed within the last 120 years have a benefit using a spitzer, or pointed bullet Yes. And nearly all of them will have bottlenecked cases.
Michael Turner
>round designed for blasting indians on horseback across the open plains >not long range.
Eli Evans
Do you think we'll see a grandfather clause this time around? It seems like the dems are really out for blood, and theyve finally got the demographics behind them to cause some real damage.
Jace Rogers
>correlation >>Jow Forums
Matthew Brown
I mean you can load spitzer in a straight wall case. 300 blackout is almost that as well as many others, and there's plenty of bottle necked non-spitzer cartridges like 30-30, 35 Remington and whatnot. Just using wall type isn't very accurate.
It's not a long range target unless you're really good at volley fire. Indians on horseback where very, close relative to actual long range.
Aiden Cooper
Because....after they're banned you can't buy them. Grandfathering is a thing.
Nicholas Garcia
What yardage do you think “long range” consists of?
Camden Clark
>>round designed for blasting indians on horseback across the open plains >>not long range. Really user? You know 120lb pull war bows were great for long range at one time but would be a pretty bad choice today when even the standard infantry rifle would out range you. Nobody is winning modern precision rifle tournaments like F class or PRS events with 45-70s anymore
Tyler Phillips
to be fair, it was a decent "long range" cartridge for its day, but a lot has changed in 150 years and it's pretty shitty for long-range shooting by today's standards.
Just because some people shoot 45-70 that far does not mean it's good for that. The trajectory is pretty wild with a cartridge and bullet profile like that, you basically need to soon like 30 or 50 feet above your target and most optics don't have that type of elevation built in. Furthermore, a new shooter will not be able to take that shot. That's years, and years of practice to be about to do that. Plus 45-70 will get absolutely dicked by wind deflection and down range effects.
30-06 still has some benefits, mostly larger case capacity for spicier loads and the ability to carry heavier projectiles or higher velocities but if you're not reloading, yeah I agree with you
Brandon Allen
You want 308 so you can run all the NATO milsurp stuff, plentiful. If you want semi-auto for cheap and can live with up to 2 MOA, the Century C308 fits. They're built by PTR now so should run good, just shitty HK91 ergonomics. And you'll want at least a $50 trigger job. Bonus is mags are dirt cheap.
Benjamin Robinson
Honestly I'm 2019 you're almost always better off going with an ar10 if you want a semi auto precision 308. It's less expensive with a higher precision margin. That being said, these are 2-3x or more of the price of what he's looking at
Angel Murphy
You should watch what those two can do with a gun built for long range rather than mortar firing until a hit. I lob rounds until I hit steel at 600 yards with an SKS all the time, that doesnt make it a good 600 yard setup. You should also learn how to use and read a ballistic calculator. Theres a lot of quality ones and theyre free. is right.
Isaiah Jenkins
Although I'd spend a little more and get the Windham Weaponry AR-10 when it goes on sale for $800. It should shoot close to 1 MOA I'm guessing, plus AR ergonomics. Mags aren't too terribly priced, and it's a common platform - parts, etc.
Charles Nguyen
>Century C308
>Regular Price: > $799.99
>Sale Price: > $699.88
Goddamn. I'll be saving for a fucking while if I wanted to go with this....and I do. I'm not really interested in break action or bolt action considering it's almost the year 2020. But that's just too much money.
Nathaniel Moore
A century 308 should not be your primary choice. It's much harder to accurize, and has a lower threshold for accuracy compared to an ar10 while being heavier and a bit more expensive.
Nicholas Ortiz
PSA AR10 parts build can be ~$600 if you wait until sales.
Joseph Edwards
I bought a Firebird Formula when I really wanted a Corvette, just being a tightass. Sold the 'bird two months later and at a loss, and got the Corvette. It'd have been cheaper to have just gotten the 'vette right up front.
Xavier Nelson
I see. Thank you! So others have suggested the Savage Axis and you've suggested the Thomas Compass. Why do you like Compass?
Also to anyone: How much does barrel length matter? I see some that say 22 inches or 24 or 26. I'm find with going as longer if it helps, I have no reason or care in the world to buy anything shorter other than price.
Jordan Baker
>longer = more volocity which is good for range >longer = more noodle barrel oscillating which is bad for accuracy and range People who shoot long range will often opt for a shorter barrel. 24" is an acceptable compromise but 22" is good too.
Jose Nelson
>much worse sectional density Not really. Even 185gr .308 bullets barely exceed the SD of the standard 405gr. Heaviest .308 bullet I know of is 220gr (usually in subsonics), which is just short of a 500gr .458, whereas .458 bullets in the 550gr-600gr range are readily available, as well as oddballs like pic related.
honestly for your situation with a gun like this they usually have a narrower profile barrel. which means more barrel flex and a bit more heat deflection when shooting far. if you want a FANTASTIC series on how to select a rifle and shoot long distance, this guy knows his shit. A bit of his stuff is a bit too cringey, but his fundamental videos are god tier. 22" will suit your needs very well.
as for why I recommend the thompson, it's an extremely high value proposition. The company is owned by Smith and Wesson, and these rifles use a Smith 5R rifled barrel that's really high quality and very precise. They are free floated from the factory and they're extremely affordable with a great warranty.
sectional density isn't the worry with 45-70, it's the coefficient of drag.
Gavin Sanchez
>sectional density isn't the worry with 45-70, it's the coefficient of drag. Follow the thread. user mentioned penetrating armor. Sectional density is critical for armor penetration.
Go watch armor test videos on YT. 308 absolutely slaughters 45-70
Dylan Martin
yeah that has more to do with velocity and bullet construction than anything else.
Ayden Cooper
Sectional density is every bit as important as those two factors.
Asher Carter
it's not as important as having a solid steel or tungsten core. I get what you're saying, but basically you want the hardest cored bullet going as fast as possible. Regular 308 still does dick all to AR500 plates and ceramics.
Jacob Baker
It's important to armor penetration in the abstract, yes. But it's completely unimportant to understanding the difference in armor penetration between .45-70 and .308, because it's one point where .45-70 and .308 don't appreciably differ. There's more overlap than difference in the range of SDs commonly used in both cartridges, and .45-70 actually wins if you go for bizarrely heavy-for-caliber bullets.
Jackson Gray
yay, caliber wars thred
Easton Morgan
.308 is far more common as a civilian round and is far more frequently stockpiled commercially/by individuals this guy is right about 30-06 vs. .308 the difference isn't significant for your purposes and 308 gives you better logistical options, notably that there are semi's in 308 and more configurations
for AP you need velocity
early answer is sensible answer, since a large caliber rifle will be your secondary don't invest too much in it- you just keep one around if ammo becomes scarce, to give to a buddy or if your primary becomes inoperable/siezed again, entirely sensible
it really isn't. larger calibers are generally for shooting bigger things, not necessarily things that are further away 500 yards, see: and and 45-70 is a brush gun, you hit big animals at close range with it- it's not what you want
Ian Sullivan
I mean hey, I sure learned a lot.
Isaac Clark
I got a DPMS Sportical LR-308 for like $650 new from Academy a while back, it's pretty alright. AR-10s seem a bit cheaper than other semi auto options. I like mine a lot. You could probably put together a PSA for that much or a bit less and have something of equal quality.
If you're really desperately poor and want something semi auto in a full sized rifle cartridge, Bear Creek Arsenal sells complete .308 uppers with BCG and charging handle (this upper is the most expensive part of your rifle but the most important) for $300. You could probably end up somewhere between $450 and $500 if you went for that and looked for deals. They seem really Hi-Point tier, though, probably close to bottom of the barrel for AR-10s. They have a life time warranty, which is in most cases not an indicator of great quality, but if you're really strapped for cash it's at least a very fucking cheap option.
I'd say you should probably save up for something better, but if you truly don't have much money, it might be smart to just jump on it and buy that before a panic kicks off as the election cycle approaches and more and more potential gun bans get floated.
Lucky Gunner sells 20 round D&H .308 mags for like $12.50, this is a good deal and I've had good experiences with D&H magazines so far.
ammoseek.com or ammograb.com aggregate online ammunition sales listings and sort by cost per round. Buy a lot of ammo if you get a rifle. The only issues I've had with .308/7.62x51mm NATO were Wolf ammo having a few infrequent dud primers. I never experienced that with any of their other calibers.
If you already have an SKS and an AR15, your best bet might just be to stockpile AR15 magazines and ammunition and put away some 7.62x39mm for cheap too.
Good luck, user. Times might be getting tough soon, hope we all make it.
Economy of scale. .308 is also not quite reaching the same max potential as max .30-06 hand loads. But, .308 is widely available and made in bulk. For the same reason, .30-30 is more expensive despite being over a century old. Its widely used, good for reloading, does deer killing well, but its still around $16-17/20 rounds whereas .308 is around $10-12/20 usually.
Sebastian Johnson
>break action .308 rifle for around 250 That's not bad.
>finally got the demographics behind them to cause some real damage Which is ironic considering those demographics are responsible for over half the gun crime in the US...
