Wouldn't a 45 be better in room to room encounters where the close proximity would call for greater stopping power?

stobbin powa is a myth when it comes to the vast majority of all handgun rounds. Practically none reach the necessary velocities to generate permanent wound cavities and thus kill or cripple the target instantly. Handgun lethality is much more reliant on accurate shot placement as a result of this since you cannot rely on your ammunition creating a large secondary injury which will do most of the work. You must hit your target in the vitals (heart, brain, spinal chord or trunk arteries) to instantaneously incapacitate them. Among slow handgun rounds fuddy five is particularly glacial, the result is that it's nowhere near fast enough to generate a permanent wound and thus still as reliant on accurate shot placement to be instantly lethal. This puts most (not all, but most) .45 guns at a disadvantage compared to most (not all) 9mm guns, as the 9 will likely carry or have magazine options to carry double or more rounds of ammo. Just as an example, most common 1911s including the original are 7+1 guns, 7 in a mag and one in the chamber. The service/duty sized Beretta 92A1 I carry holds 17 with an empty chamber, one more round than two full mags +2 rounds from a common 1911. Since the .45 is not in a substantial way more lethal it's unlikely to take any fewer shots to drop an average target, meaning that if two shooters of equal skill are attacked by two groups of assailants of equal skill, assuming the shooters hit their targets every time and empty their weapons, the shooter using .45 will have reloaded once and still not have put as many lethal shots onto targets as the 9mm shooter who will still have two or four rounds to spare before they have to reload. On top of that 9mm is generally considered to be more controllable, which means followup shots are less difficult, which means better chances of getting off that lethally accurate shot that handguns require.

Prosecutors have successfully painted defendants who used a 10mm in self defense as bloodthirsty psychos who carry a super weapon because they're looking for somebody to kill. It's retarded but true. 10mm has an infamous reputation which can be used to persuade ignorant judges and juries.

>what is mass
>what is momentum
It goes straight through things. When killing a human a tiny .22 will zip through anyway but what if it's a bear and you're trying to make the bullet exit out of it's ass when you shoot it in the head?

Threadly reminder that there is an appreciable difference in wounding capacity and neural disruption between handgun calibers
Threadly reminder that capacity is still a factor worth considering
Threadly reminder that 9mmfags will never admit this and never stop getting mad when people bring it up

This shit again?

Read this:

looserounds.com/2014/09/21/fbi-9mm-justification-fbi-training-division/

Even the FBI sounds butthurt

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>And as far as innovation in bullets themselves, 9 has far surpassed it as well,
Why do 9mmfags keep repeating this obvious falsehood? Hollowpoints aren't new technology, and even if they were, they are available in 45 caliber as well.
I mainly carry .45 ACP because it is what the 1911 was designed to use, and I find the 1911 to be the most ergonomic pistol design by far.

No, they've tried, but it has never, to my knowledge, been successful.

You should really go with .50 GI. Not only is it bigger than the .45, but it's also so big that it won't overpenetrate any interior walls. Usually any damage to the interior comes from bodies leaving craters in the drywall.

>Hollowpoints aren't new technology
if you think the only thing that has changed over the last few decades is the tip of a bullet, you don't know anything about ballistics

>STOPPIN POWAH
Fuck off with stopping power I’m so god damn sick of hearing about this shit

>Usually any damage to the interior comes from bodies leaving craters in the drywall.

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>Limp wristed faggots not understanding that it's all about energy to target

Yeah you can quadruple energy by doubling speed but that means shit all if it's going to end up in the neighbor's kids head.

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I wish this mindset would die. 9mm, 40, 45 acp all have similar stopping power within 100 ft lbs or so, compare that to a rifle round with 2000 ft lbs or more. Handguns suck compared to rifles

45 would be better compared to 10mm since both are going to be in a larger frame firearm than 9mm, or have less capacity in a similar framed firearm. In that regard, 10mm shits on 45 in every way, delivering double the energy foot pounds with the right ammo while also holding 2 or 3 rounds in a similar mag size.

>the gay "energy dump" poster shows up to the thread and pretends to understand terminal ballistics

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Meh, marginal advantage in ft lbs over 9mm, but less capacity. Shot placement and number of rounds on target are more important that caliber.

If we're talking across a room range, just get the best HD gun there is

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It's physics

You're not going to get hydrostatic shock out of a standard pistol round despite whatever gimmick they put on the box. So that little bit of extra speed is just going to serve to overpenetrate

Is this website legit? Some of the .40cal loads are apparently 600-700ft-lbs

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.40 is a great round. More power than 9. More capacity than AND more power than .45

Not enough capacity faggot.

Hell yea brother, its even almost as good as .357 sig.

>the kissless virgin 9mm
>the virgin 45
Chad 40 cal to cuck em all

The normie 40*
Get a 40 super or other super up wildcat or get gone

Lol, 40 super. 460 rowland is best 45 length cartridge

If you want stopping powah you should just straight up use a .50

50 GI sucks

38 sw breaktop, my dude.

Or 32 French long, the greatest defensive caliber ever

Yep, don't trust no type of pistol that ain't hammer fire and in 45.

>pistol
>stopping power
Why is this thread even still going?

Define advances in bullets. Your RIP rounds?

Enlighten us then faggot kek

How many shots of buckshot do you expect to need?

“No”

Cz97 is GOAT then?

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until we get 327ACP
it's all a joke anyway.

how many weeks until we can have our 23-round flush fit mags full of lo-recoil, flat shooting bullets that hit harder than 45 and pack more in a mag than 9mm?
everybody write your congressman

327ACP when?

It's weak 10mm in power, so what?

>960 Rowland: (exists)

>same ft lbs as 10mm
>greater bullet diameter than 10mm
>pointless

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what is
>20+ rounds in a regular length mag

>MUH EXPANDS .05 MORE OF AN INCH MOM GET THE CAMERA

>expands over 1.25 inches
>hurr barely noticeable

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>this thread again
For humans, pistol caliber is almost entirely irrelevant. Shot placement is everything. The difference between .45 and 9mm is primarily that 9mm is cheaper and allows for faster follow up shots due to its lesser recoil. There's a reason most police departments are going back to 9mm, and police in the US use handguns more than any other group of people, probably in the world, so their experience-driven decisions on pistol calibers are probably the most relevant.

>The difference between .45 and 9mm that I care about is 9mm is cheaper and allows for faster follow up shots due to its lesser recoil.

a 100 grain 312 caliber bullet at 1600 feet per second would grant the best possible combination of all worlds.

No, those are the differences which are backed up by the real world rather than shit cooked up by bubba on the internet. Forgot to add, greater mag capacity as well.

>those are the differences which I care about

You're gonna have to make an actual point

45 is much cheaper and easier to reload for plinking.

>You're gonna have to make an actual point I care about

No, any point at all would do

>a hole that can fit 3 fingers has been no more damaged than one that can barely fit one
I'd watch my woman closer, if I were you

honestly i don't get the hate. 40 is fine

i don't care to sort y'all out, but 9mm is the answer.
Even if there was a big difference:
> for the man who shoots well: it's not a problem that the bullet is a little weaker, I'm going to hit something important
> for the bad shot: i need more chances to hit

in both cases, the 9mm wins.

A three finger hole through your lung is just as potentially deadly as a one finger hole. While BIG HOLE BIGGER, the size of the entry wound doesn't actually matter for shit if it doesn't hit something in the body that doesn't want to be hit -- an artery, a bone, an organ. These things are actually very elastic/hard. For a pistol caliber, they need to be hit directly. For any given shot with the exact same vector, it's highly unlikely there will be any difference in lethality between .45 and 9mm. This is the real salient point. If someone were shot in the exact same place with two different calibers, would there be any significant difference in lethality? The answer is almost always no between cartridges as similar as .45 and 9mm.

You don't hunt much, do you?
For brainstem and heart then gone, your right but long of all places? Yeah nah, bigger hole is a definite factor there

A sucking chest wound of any size is going to very quickly incapacitate a human being.

One would think, wouldn't they?
But adrenaline is a hell of a drug and it's not even uncommon for someone who is fatally wounded to keep fighting for a good while after the fact

.45 tends to be subsonic, as most standard loads have a muzzle velocity of 800-1000 fps. This would be preferred for use in combination with a suppressor. I also feel like a .45 has a little less recoil than 9mm.

.45ACP and .40S&W have roughly the same energy ft. lbs. as each other and both have greater energy than 9mm. Why do people lie and pretend 9mm has the same energy as .45? Maybe in a +p+ configuration, but standard 9mm is not the same as .45.

Until you can't fucking breathe anymore, yeah. Getting sick of this. I've seen 7.62x39 entry wounds to the chest. I know from experience that even small looking entry wounds can cause significant injury, and that sucking chest wounds are going to fucking put someone out of the fight.

>talking pistol rounds
>7.62x39
Yes, genius. Pistols are mostly all in the little leagues compared to rifles. Have you seen a 7.62x39 EXIT wound, by chance?

It's generally within 50-75 foot pounds of one another which is mostly meaningless. Same reason why unga 45 bigger isn't really meaningful for defensive purposes. It's all sub 400 foot pound shit. Get 10mm, 357 magnum, 357 sig or some other stop gap almost rifle cartridge if you want actually noticable improvement from standard rounds.

40 is fine but why even bother when 10mm is a thing.

I can dig it
>ftw cant afford sweet custom 460 action just yet

The real reason people dislike .40, from talking to people irl, is the recoil. .45 is a bit more pleasant to shoot, the recoil is more of a slow burn while .40 is much snappier. This difference is exacerbated by the fact most people tend to experience .45 for the first time or of a 1911, while most people's first experience of .40 is a Glock 23.

This

while caliber shows a statistically significant correlation with death, see:
jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2688536
the relation between death and someone being stopped by gunfire before they kill you is less clear, this article contains a table that has more detail buckeyefirearms.org/alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power
I can't find good data on the topic, as one rather liberal person I know once pointed out, scientific study of firearms is sabotaged by both sides of the political spectrum because politicians fear truth.

God, that T-34 looks horrible

You need to leave fudd

What was he even TRYING to say?

>if someone is in my face I'd want to drop them with fewer shots
Why?
Why not just shoot them more instead? 9mm allows larger magazine with similar weight and size, so you can higher fire rate with the same firing time.

>WWII CAS having such accuracy
Was it rocket or bomb?

38 +p high velocity out of 6 shot revolver is best defensive combo easy

if that's your logic then your best bet is a 10mm

Just shoot the guy it’s not that hard. Especiallyyyy if you are that close to someone just fucking shoot them a lot. It’s not complicated. If they don’t go down? Keep shooting them. If you run out of ammo you should have carried another magazine.

??? thats just what a 1911 does

>hollowpoints arent new technology

Thats not all thays changed, user.

Theres a reason that .40 cal is a memeround now, and the FBI and most policing agencies have reverted back to 9mm. The standard carry for the g bois is Hornady critical duty, which IS expanding ammunition, but also has such a design that it excels in penetrating things like doors and cars, while maintaining its structural integrity, and still expanding realiably upon impact.

The critical duty also jas fantsstic terminal ballistic qualities from a full sized duty handgun. +p, and with a delightful newer soft metal/alloy casing that holds its shape better than copper could ever hope to, also extracts better due to how sleet the motherfucker is.

The list goes on in advancements, and not just with the one round that I like. My main point is: You sound real dumb right now

The second link there is interesting.

Once you get to .38 special there's not much variance in performance until you get to rifles and shotguns.

>standard pistol round
>over penetrate

Kys newfag redditposter

Ffs the overpenetration meme is cancer

77 grain OTMs are the correct answer.

>sides.exe is not responding

Cheers mate

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>tfw my friend just went on a 10 minute rant aboit how .40 cal is amazing when I brought this thread up

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This is where the 1911 actually has an advantage however, it's inherently got one of the ebst, if not the best, stock trigger of any type of any production handgun, and are typically more intuitive to point shoot under stress. I don't carry one, but I can see where overconfident people think it would be the choice for them

Well kinetic energy in ft-lbs isn't necessarily an objective measure of lethality when it comes to handgun cartridges. But in all honesty, .40 isn't terrible.

so much lols