How would you "fix" shotgun shells?

The problem with that isn't the ammo, it's the gun.

In nearly all firearms the cartridge casing acts as a gas seal preventing the hot gases from combustion from escaping into the action. When you use caseless ammo then the action of the gun must be redesigned to do this sealing instead. If you just stick caseless ammo into a gun not designed for it then it will leak gas during firing, which has a very high chance of wrecking the action and blowing up the gun. Caseless shotshells could be made, but would be useless without special shotguns too.

>They made a rimless, round-nosed 12ga round a few years back.

Intrepid RAS-12 (ammo) / AR-12 (gun)
Total flop, though you can still find the guns, uppers, and ammo for sale on the used market. IIRC the uppers are a direct swap on the DPMS style AR 308 / AR-10.

Move to drawn brass shells like modern centerfire ammunition. Since shotguns currently operate at very low pressures moving to brass walled shells and making some dimensional changes would open up a world of new super magnum shotgun designs. Imagine for a moment instead of a 12 gauge throwing 1.5oz 00 buck at ~1290 fps making 2425ft.lbs you are now able to throw it at 1600 fps making 3730 ft.lbs, instead of 1oz slugs moving at ~1600fps making 2490 ft.lbs they now move at 2300fps at make 5k+ ft.lbs. You'd also ditch the rim, which in combination with the shells being brass would solve the deformation problem current shotshells have in magazine fed shotguns, making them significantly more reliable and reasonable alternative to more traditional tube feed options.

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>that big ass rim
Yep. Still need to headspace different length shells in the same chamber, though, so going rimless causes more problems than it solves.
Belted is the answer.

>Belted is the answer.
Not a bad idea, it solves for potential headspacing problems while making feeding much easier from magazines, combine this with and you've got a pretty solid idea for a new type of ultra powerful shotguns loadings.

>1oz slugs
>5k+ ft.lbs

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Nothing. They’re unironically fine the way they are. Look, not everything is like smartphones, where you need a newlatestgreatestsuperimproved version of it every year. Shotgun shells work perfectly well. Don’t start messing with them.

>Move to drawn brass shells like modern centerfire ammunition
That's how shotshells used to be made. Brass shotshells have been around for as long as the idea of the metallic cartridge has.

> Since shotguns currently operate at very low pressures moving to brass walled shells and making some dimensional changes would open up a world of new super magnum shotgun designs.
I'm assuming you're talking about loading the cases to higher pressures? We tried that back in the 1800's. It sucks ass for shot because the increased pressure disrupts your pattern. It works just fine for slugs. Though, smaller projos traveling at higher velocities work even better, which is why the big 4-, 6-, 8-bore, etc, big-game rifles died over a century ago and people use smaller bore, higher velocity, rifles instead.

>>Imagine buck
Hmm, shitty patterns

>>Imagine slug
So, like an old double rifle? Cool, but not as cool as the originals.

>>Feeds better in a box magazine
who cares? Traditional uses of shotguns, like hunting or clay sports, favor break actions. For applications where you might need a lot of reload capacity--military or defense--then a rifle is a better choice anyway.

You can actually still buy brass shotshells in some places, but I've never tested them so that's about as deep as my input goes.

>2200fps .72 autoloader

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>How would you "fix" shotgun shells?

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After years of progress its finally complete. Boolet 2

Rimless shotgun shells would be stupid. How would they headspace without a rim and wildly varying brass/shell sizes? That's their number 1 advantage. People are already playing around with crazy shell designs and Shockwaves got people into shotguns again. We just need a decent mag fed semi-auto shotgun that isn't retardedly expensive.

Notice how the biggest one is black, whitebois btfo

Breddy cool shell when you look at the cutaway

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Rimless shotgun shells for mag feeding.

Why reinvent something that works perfectly well.

looks like a pocket pussy

>That's how shotshells used to be made. Brass shotshells have been around for as long as the idea of the metallic cartridge has.
I'm not talking about simply making the shell out of brass. I'm talking about making it out of brass and fundamentally redesigning them to allow for much higher pressures. I'm certain it wouldn't be compatible with older shotguns, which would unironically be the biggest problem IMO.

>I'm assuming you're talking about loading the cases to higher pressures?
Bingo. Idea would be you'd be able to achieve much higher pressures and velocities over using plastic/paper shotshells.

>It sucks ass for shot because the increased pressure disrupts your pattern.
So we use plated shot, shot made with hardened lead (antimony), Tungsten matrix, steel, or some combination to solved for shot deformation. I don't think this is an impossible or even difficult problem to solve.

>Though, smaller projos traveling at higher velocities work even better, which is why the big 4-, 6-, 8-bore, etc, big-game rifles died over a century ago and people use smaller bore, higher velocity, rifles instead.
No argument here, although I'd point out this would let you could carry a single gun capable of doing everything a normal shotguns can do in addition to being a ridiculous slug gun for protection from bear/moose/dangerous game

>So, like an old double rifle? Cool, but not as cool as the originals.
Exactly, except it could be pump action or semi-auto that can do everything from dove hunting to dropping grizz/moose with ease.

>who cares? Traditional uses of shotguns, like hunting or clay sports, favor break actions. For applications where you might need a lot of reload capacity--military or defense--then a rifle is a better choice anyway.
People keep trying to make magazine fed shotguns a thing even though they suck, so I'd say their is obviously demand for something that could actually do that well.

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Recessed rim. Make them shorter, move the recoil absorption system that is usually found in the shot wad to the gun.

Make them out of some lightweight aluminum alloy. Also upscale them to 4 gauge and use RDX based propellant to achieve higher velocity. use 0000, .40, or .45 caliber buckshot made of Osmiridum as the projectile. Imagine that shit flying at over 4000fps. Of course the weapon would have to be pump action and can only be wielded by genetically enhanced Übermensch

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Here's a 4 gauge next to a 12

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More aluminum shotshells

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>Unironically
Ur a retard
Abandon thread

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About six months ago a retailer was blowing out their stock of uppers. $700, new in box. I regret not buying one.

neva bin dun befo

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Imagine the smell.

Neat.

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Start mass producing something like this.

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Make them with aluminum walls so theyre less vulnerable to crushing, and make them rimless. This way they can properly feed and be stored in magazines.

Wish they'd caught on, but there was never the slightest chance of that.

Bigger.
More.

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>nu-mayels will disagree
pity them

>brass shell
>bottleneck shell
>put copper jacketed slug in bottleneck part
>rifling whole barrel

So make it a centerfire rifle? Got it.

>So we use plated shot, shot made with hardened lead (antimony), Tungsten matrix, steel, or some combination to solved for shot deformation. I don't think this is an impossible or even difficult problem to solve.
The problem isn't shot deformation--that's easily dealt with by either harder shot like you suggested, or simply using buffer. The problem is caused by pressure, which is precisely why it will be a hard problem to solve because you're actively wanting to increase pressure. Go read a shotshell reloading manual sometime, or talk to someone who loads shotshells. Adding powder to get more velocity is easy as hell. Doing so without fucking your pattern over is an entirely different ballgame.

> carry a single gun capable of doing everything from birds to bears
Modern shotguns can already do that without increasing pressure to absurd degrees, and without making the gun much heavier and thus harder to point when shooting birds or clays.

>>so I'd say their is obviously demand for something that could actually do that well.
The demand is solely from silly hobbyists who don't have much spending power, which is why this product doesn't already exist. There's simply no point for it other than "woah cool" to a relatively small group of people.

>Shotguns are an effective, but antiquated design. What would /k do to change them
Web design and browser design is bad enough, don't apply their broken logic to other things too.

You can still find the uppers for that, or even less; there's a few up on Gunbroker right now.
The real problem is that the ammo is no longer in production, so unless you buy a fuckload of it right now that will be a problem.

I wouldn't change the design, but we need a commercially produced magnesium rat shot load.

>>magnesium rat shot
So basically the "dragon's breath"?

Make them higher pressure

For what purpose?
Higher pressure fucks your patterns with shot, and as far as slugs go there are already options pushing 3500 ft-lb; I doubt you have a use for more, and if you did I doubt you are capable of handling the recoil. Go fire a box of Brennneke Magnum Crush and then tell me you want more power.

Bolter Shells

That's the joke you fuckwit

>apfsds out of a 12ga
I need this immediately

It’s shit
>20metal pellets weight 24 grams
>20x 18 grain projectiles
>880 FPS
That’s like volley firing super inaccurate Aguila Colibri 22lr
I wouldn’t even use that to hunt rabbits

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>For what purpose?
Smaller cartridges
Larger expansion ratio from the same barrel length
>fucks your patterns with shot
Stop making shit up.
>then tell me you want more power
I didn't say more power, I said more pressure.

Basically this.

With a little modification, every smooth bore shotgun becomes a shotgun, AP cannon, or a grenade launcher by just switching ammo. All in 1 weapon. God knows why this isn't a thing yet, particularly given body armor advancements. Probably just a money issue, or that there is no pressing need when .556 rifle drawbacks are covered by combined arms.

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The change is simple: Make those aguilla minishells the new standard size
>more capacity
>less recoil
>still more than enough pellets to get stuff done
The problem is that when rifle rounds started shrinking, 12ga stayed the same. This will fix everything.

>Smaller cartridges
Why would higher pressure equate to a smaller cartridge?

>Larger expansion ratio from the same barrel length
Yeah, that's called more spread. You don't want that.

>Stop making shit up.
I'm not. Any shotshell loading book you will open will discuss how raising pressure will make a big hollow spot in the middle of your pattern, aka "donut". You can fight this to some degree with specialized shot cups but it's a well known and well documented problem with elevating pressure in shot loads.

>I didn't say more power, I said more pressure.
That makes no sense whatsoever. There's no benefit to increasing pressure without power; in fact it's nothing but downsides, other than making the cartridges negligibly smaller.

Who the fuck wants a heavier gun (needed to withstand higher pressures) that shoots donut patterns just so the shells can be 2mm shorter?

>>still more than enough pellets to get stuff done
You clearly don't hunt.