Looking to buy my first rifle. Should I get an Ar or Ak? What manufacturers should I avoid? Budget is $600

get a PSA then you can customize it later if you're bored

If you could get a WASR for 500 with some mags, I'd go that way. If not, a PSA premium with a Chrome lined barrel would be my bet. A forged PSA AK would be ok, but not optimal.

Don't listen to a word that faggot says. Easily the dumbest tripfag on this board

>/arg/
>being helpful or happy
Nice may may.

Then why the fuck did you post that pic?
Save your moneys and put down your bong, you stoner little shit.

My first rifle was a WASR-10 AK, and I loved that thing. It's still a great option for babby's first semi auto rifle. The AK market is dead as imports just aren't coming in, thus raising prices on the second hand market. A new WASR is still ~$750, which still isnt too bad.

You will get an ok AR cheaper (m&p15, Ruger 556 are good options) for ~$450, but something you should consider before deciding what rifle is good for you at the moment is what your long term budget is for feeding the thing and for accessories. Any home defense weapon or weapon you train with should have a sling and a light on it too. The cheapest steel cased .223 ammo is ~$235-260 for 1k rounds, and some of the budget ARs won't cycle it. On the other hand, most all AKs will cycle even the cheapest junk 7.62x39 there is, and 1k rounds are ~$200 on average.

Long term you're going to want one of each. Being that AK prices are rising and availability continues to diminish for good imports, I'd recommend a good AK first especially if you don't have a lot of money to spend for practice ammo, optics, etc.

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This is good advise. Scour Armslist for a used WASR. They never die so used is fine.

ignore this fag
dont go to /arg/

/arg/ is useful, but only to fix the problem of reddit-tier AR rifles. You can learn how to have the latest in aesthetic memery, and if your shit looks haggard they will bully you into fixing it. OP could be helped by /arg/, but only if he's got money for LMT or KAC and nods.

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#builtnotbought

I concur

What if I ACTUALLY want to build it? As in, get each piece of metal individually and assemble it? The videos I've seen aren't too bad. The main thing im wondering about now is choosing parts that balance well with each other, like barrel length, gas tube length, gas block size (I'd go adjustable for many reasons), BCG weight, buffer spring and weight, and buffer tube length. Like, what do I choose first, and how does that dictate my choices for the other parts? I understand the basics of the barrel/gas/recoil system, but I'm not confident enough to buy a complete set of parts and expect that it will be well tuned. I don't mind making a mistake on a buffer weight or something because that's cheap and spares are useful, but the barrel and bcg aren't cheap, and I'm assuming the barrels come predrilled for a certain gas tube length. I've been watching a lot of Gerand Thumb and he's opened my eyes to how all these variables play with each other.

If anyone is willing to help, I want to go medium to full length barrel for my first build. No shorter than M4 length due to noise and reliability, and I'd like to grow into it's longer range capabilities over time. Don't want to deal with a tax stamp yet either.

Factor in renting or buying the tools needed for assembly in your meager budget.

AK is a better warfighters gun. It's also more versatile in that you can hunt with the caliber. Most states don't allow hunting even medium game with .223. That being said, humans are considered medium game...

The AK platform is in fact more robust. It's made of steel instead of aluminum, most mag options are steel, and clearing jams is easier if they ever happen because you can mortar that bitch. Mortar an AR and you'll bend the hollow aluminum buffer tube and be able to shoot one more round before your BCG gets stuck inside the bent tube forever, or until a smith can get up in there and pull it out.

They're are not much less accurate, especially the AK100 series (Saigas & Arsenals) and VEPRs. But those are expensive AF now. Back in the day, everyone would tell you to get an AK over an AR, now that only oldfags and richfags have good ones, they shill hard for their compensation gun since they can never get a real AK. That being said, I don't recomend anything other than the three options I mentioned. If you're a poorfag anyway and are considering a PSA as your AR choice, get a WASR instead.

People are going to post that mud test video. It's not as big an issue as it seems. You flip your safety/dust cover before crawling through shit so your gun doesn't go of/shit doesn't get in it. With an AR, that's two separate movements on different sides of the gun. Again, not built with warfighting in mind, build by an aerospace engineer who didn't know shit about war. AK was built by a tanker who went through one of the most bloody wars in history. That experience went into his design (and so did the schematics he stole from the Nazis, who also fought some wars).

Whats wrong with your springfield?

>100% get an AR. They are far superior in almost every way and furthermore at your pricepoint you would be getting a trash AK while for $600 you can get a passable AR.
This is all right >Also come check out /arg/ we're happy to help with a build.
Fuck off wuggy

>nigga just put together a stripped lower and call it a day. I just did it and it scratched my autistic need to assemble things and my need for an 11.5 pistol at the same time. Assembling the Upper is over rated beyond choosing a barrel and rail combo.

>cant mortar an AR
You're a blatantly lying ak shill. AK fags are unbearable because they're basically just nostalgia fags holding on to
>muh tried and true

A piston operated AR-15 is literally the most all around versatile and dependable option especially when considering in the event of a boogaloo meme you have free parts readily available.

FAG.

Also something to consider:
AR
>Tons of tiny parts/springs

AK
>3 main parts, springs are large and robust

AR
>caliber shoots flat, but cucks out at 400y, won't kill shit at longer ranges. Doesn't penetrate cover well, diverts from light cover and even concealment such as bushes.

AK
>caliber arcs, but sights are adjustable to compensate, WILL kill shit out to 800y if you can hit it. Also punches through medium cover.

.308 however cucks both those calibers. If you can afford a .308 get it. The main choices for that are AR10 or PTR91. The PTR (G3) is about as robust as the AK so it's essentially the same decision as AK vs AR. They also make .308 AKs, but accuracy is a priority with .308 as it's a long range caliber, so as much as I dislike ARs I won't hate much on the AR10 because ARs are in fact accurate despite their design flaws. However, make sure the particular AR10 you're getting is an accurate one, and consider that G3s aren't necessarily inaccurate.

You can mortar an AR lightly. At that point you might as well just clear it normally. DO NOT mortar hard if it has a serious enough malfunction, or learn the hard way, whatever.

A piston AR is still made of aluminum and probably has more complexity and small parts. I didn't even bring up the DI vs piston thing, I don't see that as much of an issue honestly unless S actually does HTF and you can't baby your rifle anymore. The action itself is reliable enough when clean/lubed, is lighter, and gives an edge towards accuracy. However, ARs typically can't run dry at all, and don't run well when excessively dirty. Pistons are more robust for sure, but heavier and generally a bit less accurate.

the fuck are you talking about? the tiny parts you're talking about are mostly captive pins, and are virtually never failure points. the ak doesnt have these because it uses caveman joinery technology instead of engineering to hold itself together.

AR part breaks - i either fix it on the spot, swap uppers, or, at worst, borrow an armorer's wrench and fix it with home tools.

AK part breaks - hope you've got a machine shop complete with fucking lathe, press, welding station, and riveting station

also, have you never seen any 5.56 bullets other than 55gr M193? 77gr otm will get out past 600m easily while remaining effective, and it will do it without the operator having to aim the thing like an indirect fire artillery piece.

>You can mortar an AR lightly.
why lightly? what do you incorrectly believe happens if you do it too hard? is your massive slavic chad strength just going to extrude the puny aluminum charging handle through the slot? i've seen dudes full-on pogo stick their ARs.

>At that point you might as well just clear it normally.
thats true at basically any point, mortaring an AR isn't a part of the correct manual of arms for any malfunction.

>A piston AR is still made of aluminum
literally so? thick forged aluminum isn't somehow less durable than thin stamped chinesium steel? in fact, you could argue that the material properties of lighter weight and non-rusting aluminum are a great fit for a properly engineered rifle.

oh, and as for needing a lot of care and feeding? its not vietnam anymore, gramps. the rifle at your left went over 30,000 rounds without *being cleaned*.

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I realized after his second post it wasnt worth arguing with him since he's either black or a fudd. For some reason these two absolutely will not accept that ars have become the most dependable option all things considered.

Don't listen to a single word this retard says OP.

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You're a fuckin autismo he is completely right

>wuggy
>right

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Don't buy any guns libtard. You don't need guns to protect yourself. You see I support Donald Trump and his red flag laws which means getting assault rifles banned in America. Of course you libtards want guns so you can join antifa and try to overthrow the government. Well guess what? Trump has tanks, drones, the marines and B-2 bombers and fellow patriots that will obey the commander-in-chief when it's time for you to turn your guns in to the Donald who is going to fight the deep state together. Why do democrats think they need assault rifles?

RAS

>agreeing with someone that shot at /arg/ posters on a shooting trip
>agreeing with someone that intentionally fucked up an AK clone despite /akg/ offering to hold his hand
No, the registered democrat can get redflagged.

I don't mind that. I'm figuring an extra $200 in speciality tools that will enable me to strip my gun down to pieces entirely any time in the future. I just like having those skills. Plus, having introductory gunsmithing skills and tools (I know that's a stretch but I don't have a better word) makes you more valuable in a SHTF situstion, which never hurts.

I guess I'm more autistic than you. I just want to properly BUILD my gun. Lower parts kits are great and I'll probably use one for the lower, but that's just one part of the gun, and it's the part you're meant to work on yourself. I want to do it all. Idk why I always run into people telling me not to go as far into something as I want to. I see it in every hobby. Granted, I have a lot of unfinished projects, so maybe they have a point sometimes. But I don't understand the consistent discouragement.

Im also looking for my first gun. What is your guys opinion and experiences with PSA's? Should I be like every other poor fag and buy a Yugo or Serb SKS? Budget is around $350-550. Thank you lads.

You'll spend more money on a decent sks than an alright AR. Just buy the upper and lower you thinks the niftiest and within your price range.

If you can build an R/C car or do a brake job on your Toyota, you can build an AR from a kit.

You can get a complete kit, or a couple smaller kits.
Obviously a complete kit will have everything.
Or you can get an upper kit and a lower kit.

Pay attention to what parts are included.
You don't want to get a lower kit that has the buffer tube and then order a stock that also comes with the buffer tube.

Gas tube length is designed into the barrel- where's its physically drilled.
Manufacturers use standard setups which (surprisingly) /arg/ tripfags disagree with. So just ignore them.
Palmettostatearmory.com
Outdoorsportsusa.com
Davidsondefense.com
Those sites are a start for kits.
PSA is pretty reliable.
The other two are real hit or miss. Might get a bad ass kit or might get something that's an absolute pita to build.
Biggest issue I've seen with them is getting the handguard to lineup with the upper/barrel nut.

PSA is good. Get a kit and an anderson lower.

Yugo SKS is good. In fact any SKS is good. It's just a good gun. No such thing as a Serb SKS, but they do make good AKs called "O=Pap" and "N-Pap".

Cont..

Get an armorer's wrench off of eBay for like $14.
Vice block is nice, but you can survive without it. Worse case scenario when you screw on the barrel nut or buffer tube, wrap it in a sock, wedge it in a partially open kitchen drawer and tighten the nut.
Along with the wrench, you'll need a razor blade, small punch, hammer and a pair of vice grips.
Use the vice grips to "squeeze" the roll pin in for the forward assist and bolt catch.
Watch a couple youtube videos before you start, you'll see the razor blade trick for the take-down pin detents- I lock myself in the bathroom when I do this because I usually launch the spring at least once. Another user says he assembles it with the lower and his hands in a large, clear plastic bag.

....
And for gods sake pay attention to the laws.
Don't buy a pistol upper and put a stock on it, that would be a felony.

Don't buy a 5.56 barrel and then buy a 7.62 bcg because you found it on sale somewhere.
Free float hand guards are dependent on the barrel nut. To change the handguard you have to change the nut. So if you buy a preassembled upper and find a cool handguard, be aware that you have to go deeper than just those tiny screws that hold the handguard on.

If there's a kit that's cheap but you don't like the look of the handguard or the grip or whatever, keep looking. When you buy a cheap kit then a $25 dollar grip, a $50 stock and an $80 handguard- you just defeated the purpose of building your own.

.223 and 5.56 chambers are not the same.
Yes, one round out of the other will function, but with reduced accuracy.
.223 wylde is an attempt at a chamber that's compatible with both. Its more accurate than a .223 out of a 5.56 but less accurate than a 5.56 out of a 5.56. Its a preppers dream chamber, more of a meme than .50 Beowulf.

Sounds good. Will look out for what kits include.

If barrel manufacturers are so sure that they all drill their barrels of x length to y distance, why do people take issue with it?

I won't be going lower than PSA so that's fine. I want most worried about the barrel nut and buffer tube so that's good to know, especially since I'll probably go with a free floating guard which means proprietary knut.

Already watched the Iraqveteran8888 video on assembling an ar, that's what convinced me I could do it. I'll watch some more though.

Plastic bag trick sounds great.

If I get a stripped upper and get my own barrel, how would I accidentally build an SBR? I just have to watch the barrel length right?

If I can't find a kit that i like, I'll buy the parts individually. No big deal.

I'll look out for different chamber components. I'm planning on 5.56 all the way, maybe with a .22 LR kit in the future just for shits and giggles.

Thank you so much for the advice!

/arg/ are a bunch of autistic faggots, literally. They think they know more than manufacturers because they have a $200 tax stamp.

16" barrel is legal.
Below that and you're probably in SBR range (exception is if you have a 14.5" barrel and then a muzzle device that's 1.5" and welded on to make it permanent- bringing the overall barrel length to 16").
So as long as you stick to 16" you're fine.
Muzzle brakes are fun on paper but suck at the range. You'll feel the concussion and the sulfur blast to your face sucks. The standard A2 birdcage is honestly the best option.

Most kits will have CAR (carbine) buffer and spring, that's the best place to start on a 16"
If you do a free float handguard, don't get a barrel with an iron sight (its also the gas block).
You'll have to get some flip ups or optics., or both.
You can get a 7" handguard or a 16", whatever your preference. I run at least a 12" handguard on a 16" barrel.

Take your time when assembling. And remember that these are all mass produced components.
When you assemble the bolt catch (or anything else), make sure that it moves freely. You might have to gently sand off tool marks. Its worth the effort to take it back apart and polish rather than just letting it "wear-in".

Most common twist rates are 1:7, 1:8 and 1:9
Original M16 was 1:12.
Lower the number, heavier the bullet.
So 77gr. will do better in a 1:7.
55gr. will do better in 1:9
Most common ammo will be .55 and .62.
.75/.77 are generally hunting rounds.
.55 are cheapest.

.22 kits are more expensive than a good marlin. A .22 kit is great for teaching kids but other than that they're honestly something that you'll probably use once and forget about.

Sounds like you have a good enough grasp on it, so good luck.
And avoid the cancer that is /arg/ (unless you just go there to shit talk and torment them like I do).

DO NOT BUILD AN AR

It is a fucking joke. You will need to buy specific special tools, and if you're only building one AR it's going to end up costing more. You're going to need to research all the small parts you need. You're going to need to put all those small parts together and it's a fucking pain in the ass. Installing the gas tube requires you to hold the gas tube perfectly lined up, hold the gas block which is round and difficult to keep lined up on a surface, hold the rice sized roll pin in place, hold the punch, hold the hammer, and hammer it in. You tell me how many hands that requires. You pretty much have to tape, vise, and tweezer everything to cobble it together and make it work. DO NOT fucking bother, it's fucking clown engineering. Nothing like putting together electronics or car parts ffs. Buy it, get it done right by people who do it often and with the right tools. You'll end up with no scratches on your receiver, no bent parts, no lost tiny parts, and most importantly no frustration. Idk how the meme of building your own AR took off. Yes it's possible but it's a fucking bad joke.

I'd get a Savage MSR-15 Patrol just because 16" carbine length gassed barrels are fucking awful to upgrade; the Savage has a decent midlength 16" nitrided barrel that's a much better foundation for a free float Mlok rail down the road.

But honestly, ARs will be around for a while - AKs are very susceptible to import laws and bans. This is both an argument for (get them while you can! Especially the Russian 7.62x39 ammo) and against (why sink money into a rifle with a dubious logistical profile) them, so take your pick.

The upper is a much worse pain point than the lower. You can assemble the lower with minimal knowledge and tools; the upper requires a vice and barrel wrench and it's still much easier to fuck up than people let on.

I'd just pay the cash to people who spend all day working on this stuff and have less chance of fucking it up.

>Savage
This is solid advice. I'd recomend a complete Savage rifle or Aero completely upper/complete lower then pin them together.

Savage does barrels right. Good manufacturing process, good twist rates, good finishes. Aero has upgraded AR stuff like the gen 2 lowers and gen 2 uppers, both designed to increase accuracy of the rifle. Every other rifle that's in the middle price range doesn't do anything special, and actually do shit wrong like give you fucked up twist rates, wobbly receivers, or bad barrel finishes (typically none at all with stainless barrels). Get a savage if you want everything one and done. Get an aero if you want better upper/lower parts quality and the option to install your own boutique barrel (really the only part that matters) since you can buy it in parts.

Only easy part to fuck up on the lower is the bolt release retaining pin. Honestly I'd rather pay an extra $10 to not have a big scratch on my reciever and dent in the roll pin housing.

The upper was a fucking nightmare. Had to torque the barrel nut down to 80 ft/lbs to get the notches to line up with the gas port hole, and by the time I reach that torque my receiver had bent. I'm now trusting my life to an upper that I had to bend back into spec with two wrenches.

>Ogre rage
How does it feel to know that 18 year old cheerleaders named Tiffany can survive dismantling an M4 in boot camp, but you're terrified of them?

Yeah have those 18 year olds assemble the fucking gun from scratch parts and see how long boot camp will need to be. At least they have extra hands. If I call my friends over to help me build an AR I'll get red flagged.

>certified retard

Protip:
>Start the roll pin in the block.
>insert tube.
>Place block/pin inside vice grip jaws.
>Line up tube.
>Squeeze vice grips.
I get it.
You've never worked with tools before. But its a very simple process if you have an IQ higher than a turnip.

I don’t like you trip but you’re right

Wasn’t cycling properly. Wouldn’t always go into battery and the trigger wasn’t resetting due to this. Just got it back from the factory ( free warranty repairs including shipping). They replaced the BCG, hammer and trigger disconnector and polished the feed ramps and chamber. Going to the range tomorrow to test it.

for a first rifle: Get a 10-22 and learn to ahoot.

Ignore this fudd advice

Do you not know what fudd means?

Technical name for the dong? Half chub dong? They still work great for a underfolder?

>600
I think airsoft is more your speed, kiddo

I'm glad to see you've awoken from you're coma.
Let me get you up to speed on world events:
>Donald Trump is president of the U.S.
>Brexit passed and a "no deal" deadline is about a week away.
>Quality AR15's are now at the $300 range.

even a blind pig can find truffles. just because he is an annoying tripfag, doesnt mean he's wrong on this.

PSA plus mags and ammo. I don't really see the point in buying anything between PSA and like, BCM or something. PSA is decent and dirt cheap. Good enough for now. Shoot a lot and git gud. Later buy a nice BCM upper or something gucci.

If you're going to get another rifle in the future, then spend that $600 on a nice cleaning kit, a pile of ammunition, targets, and a .22lr rifle of your choice.

return to reddit faggot

my uncle has parkinsons and even he can put together an AR, you faggot numale.

>quality AR
>$300 range
Let me guess. You've never held anything nice. Have you?

This, its lots cheaper, easier, and safer to learn to shoot with a .22. You should also invest in some nice ear and eye protection.

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go gargle more cum faggot. a 10/22 is possibly the best learning rifle you can get.

The market is over saturated.
Tooling is paid off.
Manufacturers are running a slim profit margin.
On one hand geisselle makes a great product, but that fancy handguard has no effect to 99% of owners.
I'll bet you drool over A1 aesthetics, and yet a current bottom barrel build is superior in quality and design.

You can justify your purchase all you want, but the reality is AR's are a 70 year old design and there's nothing complicated about it. You're a sucker for paying $200 for a handguard.

>tooling is paid off
>every company uses the same tooling
And you're a sucker for buying electronics that costs pennies to make, right?

buy an ak

JFC! I'm a .22 whore and I'm cumming!

Get a FNC.

>100% get an AR
I agree.

>They are far superior in almost every way
Debatable.

>at your pricepoint you would be getting a trash AK while for $600 you can get a passable AR
Pretty much.

>Check out Aero Precision and Palmetto State Armory.
Aero Precision is the better of the two, but it depends on how much you want to spend.

>Also come check out /arg/ we're happy to help with a build.
This is the biggest lie I've ever seen posted on Jow Forums

Ok fuddster

classy

Do you even know what fudd means dumbshit?

>Budget is $600
FNCs these days tend to run $3000 and up when you can find them, unfortunately.

All that sounds good.

Will a higher twist rate slow down or otherwise negatively effect a heavier bullet? I don't plan on hunting with it. Why would you pick a heavier vs a lighter bullet? Which grain was the gun designed to fire?

I'll plan on going with a 10/22 or something instead of a .22 LR kit for now then.

I intend to start out just practicing at short range to get a hang of the gun, and eventually practicing both close and mid range. I might get into long range stuff eventually but I'm not worrying about that right now. What progression of irons>1x>low power variable optic would you recommend to work up to good mid range shooting? I don't mind going right to a low power variable and running it in 1x in the beginning, but if starting with a 1x red dot is better that's fine too.

Will a high twist rate degrade a heavy bullet's performance? What does bullet weight effect?

Ignore, thought my last reply didn't go through.

Yes.

Original M16 was 1:12 twist.
That's 1 rotation for 12" of barrel.
And they figured out that it sucked.

Lighter rounds want less twist.
So a 55gr. bullet does better our if a 1:9 barrel than a 1:7.
If you want to hunt deer with a .77gr bullet, get a 1:7.
If you want to buy ammo by the can, your choices are .55gr or .62gr.
1:9 is the best overall barrel, especially for a first gun.
1:7/1:8 and you're getting into rubberband harmonics and .5 MOA with custom loads.
But if you find a great deal on a 1:7, buy it.

I'm drinking jager tonight so if anybody saw my other posts that I deleted, please forgive the alcohol.

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Fuck it, I give up.
Here, take this for your journey..

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>1:12
>red for 40gr

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Looking to buy my first rifle. Should I get an Ar or Ak? What manufacturers should I avoid? Budget is $56.23.

>arg
>friendly

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I can personally attest to these charts being bullshit in regards to lighter bullets in fast twists.

As long as you aren't exceeding the RPM limits of a projectile a fast twist won't negatively impact light bullets. 40gr VMAX through my 1:7 barrel shoots better groups than 75gr BTHP match.

>renting tools

I built mine on the living room floor with a $20 armored wrench and (60yo) basic handtools. If you don't have those then well, you are an onion boy who needs to learn to use his hands, and have shitty parents/grandparents who never passed on a worthwhile skill.