What is our doctrine concerning prolonged domestic air defense warfare? Do we even have any fully elaborated military plans for this or is our national AD simply given the backseat treatment of "we're not expecting an attack, but if it happens just scramble the jets"
Also, does D.C. have a concentric missile defense system a la Moscow? Or do we not require anything as complicated because of the geographical advantage?
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Any city or town without significant jewish population can assume it simply exists to take hits on behalf of the jews.
Send the Saudis the joint US/Isreal 'Iron Dome'.
>irony much
Putting aside a full-blown nuclear attack, what would we do in the event of a large scale aerial invasion (I known it's unlikely) by some hypothetical peer opponent?
Do cities like NY, BOS, LA, Seattle and DC have any sort of SAM protections?
They used to, look up the NIKE SPRINT program. Nuclear anti air missiles
>prolonged domestic air defense warfare
Not really a thing. When it comes to defending against aircraft, the US Air Force, Navy, and Marines pose a much more potent threat than any ground based missiles, and with missile defense, the technology is still very much in the development phase, and often not considered reliable enough to invest in full-scale deployment. My understanding is that Burkes have actually been deployed as an ocean-based missile-defense platform for the US before, using their SM-3s, but I have no idea whether or not that's a primary mission of the ship.
There are a very, very small number of hostile foreign aircraft that can reach any part of the 50 states and an even smaller number that could reach the lower 48.
DC has ground based amraams, which is what is pictured in OPs post.
They also have avengers posted on tall buildings and some parking garages, same may be true with New York. I do know they keep caches of Stingers in New York, and probably DC too.
The majority of air defense would be up to the Air National Guard
I'm familiar with those and other pioneering AD systems from the cold war, but how does the DoD approach the issue of domestic air defense today? Or is the assumption that our vastly oversized airforce will be able to keep any potential enemy air force in check?
Yeah the Air Force is meant to do the work. But in a scenario lets say where there is an air disadvantage for some reason, you would see mass deployments of patriots, as well as ship based systems stationed in strategic positions along the coasts
I see, but that does mean the sheer infeasibility of a foreign aerial invasion is our security?
DC has a SHORAD and HIMAD systems in the form of Avengers and Patriot batteries. The MDA has GMD defending the homeland against ICBMs. In addition to you know the largest Air and Sea Power force the world has even known which are always mobilized.
Nobody attacks population centers for the sake of merely killing civilians. Setting aside the moral/ethical implications, that is a waste of resources when there are significant military assets that require priority. Cities simply do not require air defense assets.
Nike AJAX and Hercules systems were stationed were they were not to protect those cities, just because those locations happened to be situated at air corridors which inbound air tracks would utilize.
Most area defense in the D.C. area are done with the Kongsberg NASAMS, pic related.
The funny thing was that Hippies hated having anti nuclear missles protecting our cities so we got rid of them.
I have just the image for you.
>ships
Didn't even consider our ship-based AD systems. kek, I was far too focused on the vatnik way of doing air defense that i forgot we have a navy.
Interesting. I didn't know we had SLAMRAAMs in the AO. I don't really see the point. Static defenses seem pretty antiquated and subject to sabotage.
>Nobody attacks population centers for the sake of merely killing civilians.
In the case of the modern West, it might have real implications as to whether anyone else wants to keep fighting. You dust the major shitlib population centers and the greater agenda likely dies with them.
Yeah I'm not sure either, unless the higher ups don't trust patriot either, which doesn't make a lot of sense. But these systems could be from a time when patriots had a lot more difficulty hitting aircraft then they do now
> My understanding is that Burkes have actually been deployed as an ocean-based missile-defense platform for the US before, using their SM-3s
As standard anti-air or as ABM missiles?
There's a reason the Russians do it the way they do, it suits them better. But ships create an excellent air defense blanket, considering you can position them as far away from the target as needed.
Sm-3 is exclusively anti missile, but there's no reason they wouldn't be able to pull double duty with their other armaments
Yep, American DDGs and CGs are kinda ridiculously optimized for air and missile defense due to their role in the carrier group. There's definitely plans to patrol near coastal waters for missile and air defense purposes if it's ever deemed necessary.
The Pacific and Atlantic Oceans are the greatest natural defenses a nation could ask for.
>the sheer infeasibility of a foreign aerial invasion is our security
To a certain extent, yes. The other major part is due to the US having more planes, better planes, and better-trained pilots than any other country, along with a navy that's more than capable of preventing enemy aircraft carriers from coming close.
The United States Air National Guard possesses more then one thousand aircraft and is itself larger then any hostile air power. Beyond that, there are simply no potental threats able to realistically reach American cities with anything but strategic bombers that could not reach a US city without being shot down.
>”our” defenses
Nice try, Chang.
Shitty post user
They do it that way because they are poor and can't realistically prevent a European power from flying to Moscow. The SAMs are effectively on display as domestic propaganda, to suggest to Russians that they are capable of defending them.
>everyone that wants to learn more about our defense doctrines is an operative in a intelligence facility somewhere in the Gobi Desert
I enjoy shitposting too but c'mon
You're not wrong, air defense is not an excuse for not having an air force
What percentage of those aircraft are actually airworthy?
America shouldnt have ANY defensive doctrine other than the 2nd amendment and nukes. Nothing in our arsenal is even vaguelly useful for national defense because we have a fully offense centric military. Even NG is just reserves for our expeditionary forces, they just stay mobilized in case theres a natural disaster or some farmer decides to go against the BLM.
Im more concerned about the fact that we have no AD centric mindset for our offensive forces, we have no IADS anywhere and we are basically fucked if navy and air force cant keep the bad guys away for some reason (its their period day etc...)
The degassifier is a ludicrous expense to stop mortar shells and drone attacks. I agree that something is better than nothing, but there needs to be a spaag platform.
By that logic there shouldnt be a single gun in north america. We dont arm ourselves for potential scenarios or even worst case scenarios. We arm ourselves for armageddon and by doing so prevent it.
Soon to be all of them, as they are being replaced with F-35s
Russia has 500 or so interceptor aircraft with ludicrous range and near mach 3 speeds. There isnt anything getting near moscow, its ridiculous to suggest """"""european powers"""" (pbuh) can just waltz to moscow unchallenged. Not to mention their center of government isnt even in Moscow, the Kremlin is and has always been for show, its a big circus tent decoy. Russian government is in dispersed but at any sign of danger they go to Yamantau or some such complex.
>as they are being replaced with F-35s
Over what time period?
They barely have 500 fighter aircraft in service.
Something like 150 mig 31s in service, which are the only ones that can hit that speed.
>There isnt anything getting near moscow, its ridiculous to suggest """"""european powers"""" (pbuh) can just waltz to moscow unchallenged.
kek'd at pbuh
Didn't the head of Russian air defenses get gulag'ed like a week after that?
Yup. And the minister of defense.
the PVO got purged massively.
For short range defense we have obsolete cold war missiles and M2 machine guns mounted on a pickup Nigger Style, oh and
>In 2004, the U.S. Army had 26 battalions with Avenger Short-Range Air Defense (SHORAD) capabilities, but prioritization of other weapon systems during operations in Afghanistan and Iraq caused that number to drop to nine by early 2017, of which two were within the active force and seven were in the Army National Guard.
tldr we have two bats of short range air defense, spread across the globe. Its basically nothing.
For medium range we have patriot and for long range we have thaad. There are no options in between the giant gaps those systems leave, and because there is zero competition we also arent going to be seeing any changes here.
For a long time PVO was a place to put problem officers and politically connected brats. They killed over twelve hundred of them and arrested ten thousand.
At any given time about half, giving the ANG better readiness then pretty much any comparable force. It's the reserve of the USAF, half if their job is keeping those aircraft ready to go.
>There are no options in between the giant gaps those systems leave
That gap will close quickly. Multi mission launcher and whatever upgrades the patriot, probably the Israeli magic wand will be excellent in that role.
>trust me the post
MiG-31 has shit range and hits high Mach 2 once before being turned into a pile of stainless steel scrap with deep fried engines.
Trust me on what? These programs all exist and are being rushed a long very quickly.
missiledefenseadvocacy.org
army.mil
israeldefense.co.il
The engine issue is more related to the 25, though, right?
>killed and arrested
Shit. I thought they were just fired and replaced.
>They killed over twelve hundred of them and arrested ten thousand.
Was this after the Rust incident, or a cumulative count of all the people killed/arrested during the operating history of the PVO?
>Was this after the Rust incident, or a cumulative count of all the people killed/arrested during the operating history of the PVO?
Not who you replied to, but I imagine the latter. There were political executions throughout the course of the USSR, but most of them occurred under Stalin. By the 80's, people were much more likely to just go to jail or be reassigned to an unpleasant job.
>Israeli magic
It intercepts sugar rockets travelling on ballistic paths, needs jacks to fire, is very complex and expensive, has no recorded ability to even fire in cold climates. Dont make me laugh, mounting literal air to air rockets to trucks would be a better option.
I dont know, I watched a documentary about it when I was a kid in the 90s.
The same problems exist in the Foxhound. The engines and to a lesser extent the airframe can get it to Mach 3, but the never exceed speed is Mach 2.8 and that's a hard limit.
>mounting literal air to air rockets to trucks
*blocks your flightpath*
That was a good idea that would at least give us something other than a patriot battery to shoot at a fucking quadcopter.
The only thing you appear to have gotten correct about Iron Dome is that it uses jacks to stabilize the launcher.
Mach 2.8 is a software limiter to extend engine life, they can easily go above mach 3 for short periods. You are confusing the one defector who turned his jet engines into ramjets for half an hour to escape to Israel into a serious problem with the design.
Also what exactly is your point, I dont get it, does western Europe have a faster bomber or something? Youre picking at nits this is still bullshit.
>Software limiter
It's not a FBW aircraft. There's no digital controls on the engine.
FBW is controlls to the ailerons has nothing to do with what controls the engines. You think there is an abacus there?
Full FBW includes FADEC. The throttle on a MiG 25/31 is analog.
>the fact that we have no AD centric mindset for our offensive forces, we have no IADS anywhere and we are basically fucked if navy and air force cant keep the bad guys away for some reason (its their period day etc...)
Apart from MANPADs, don't the Army and the marines have their own large aviation wings? And not just for transport but for CAS
Rust's landing was a gift to the Politburo to clean house.
And they cleaned fucking house.
Not so much, the idea is that the USAF and USN will achieve air superiority, while the organic air units of the army and marines will act in direct support, and the US mainland will be protected by the air national guard and national guard.
>The throttle on a MiG 25/31 is analog.
Right its a system of pulleys and levers, on a jet engine thats used on fricken modern airliners, after an upgrade specifically about lowering weight by introducing digital systems.
Fucking SAUCE on that bullshit claim.
Yeah, that;'s the normal expectation, but it seems that bemoans the fact that we are too reliant on the air force and navy AD in lieu of a dense, country-wide IADS
It's a Soviet fighter from the 1970s, friend. The digital computer on it provides limited automatic management and diagnostics but doesn't control the power output at all and isn't connected to any air speed sensors, making it pretty fucking hard to have it automatically limit airspeed.
What it has is a temperature sensor connected to an alarm that warns the pilot when the fuel tanks become dangerously hot, letting them know they need to throttle down. This is stupid, but combined with a pilot that knows the never exceed speed of the airframe, a perfectly functional way to fly, and thus not stupid anymore.
Army cant have useful aviation because of Key West and Marines cant have useful aviation because they keep getting cucked by the navy. VTOL of any kind can suck a fat one if the enemy has significant short range IADS on the ground.
Which is exactly why HOOOAH need short range IADS, to fuck potential near peer foes VTOL drones and any fighter thats too scared to fly in a Patriots engagement envelope.
On the one hand Rust improved the efficiency of their air defenses.... On the other hand Rust killed more commies than anyone else in the cold war.
Mixed bag.
I bemoan that the only purpose of the largest military branch and the fiercest military branch is to shoot outdated garbage munitions at the enemy and force the enemy to stay hunkered down in one place for fricken hours while the Hair Farts and Gayvy finish their tea and crumpets, get off their 300lb asses, and jiggle a joystick so a drone drops a bomb where its needed. We are literally the zookeeper holding down mamma panda and pappa panda and trying to get the three inch limp pappa panda dick to enter the mamma panda.
Our military is not at 100% lethality until the people divorced from combat utterly arent the ones in charge of killing the enemy. We need fuckloads of artillery and organic aviation to provide fires and air defense missiles to protect us, let hair farts do interception and gayvy do anti ship they arent useful for anything else.
Basically, I want us to be the ones deep shafting the mamma panda with nine inches of prime summer sausage all the while bullying the pappa panda for not being able to get it up.
Vershtein?
Also M-SHORAD, which will basically be Avenger, but on a Stryker and with a 30mm for killing drones.
our doctrine is "if the enemy has planes over north america then we fucked up"
Basically this, we're so fucking far from any credible threat that if something other than a TU95 touches our airspace we were already fucked long before that point
Pathetic though they were the Soviets had computers, and the airplane has had numeroud upgrades over the years.
en.m.wikipedia.org
>Some upgrade programs have found their way into the MiG-31 fleet, like the MiG-31BM multirole version with upgraded avionics, new multimode radar, hands-on-throttle-and-stick (HOTAS) controls,liquid crystal(LCD) color multi-function displays (MFDs), ability to carry theR-77missile and various Russianair-to-ground missiles(AGMs) such as theKh-31anti-radiation missile(ARM), a new and more powerful computer, and digitaldata links.
Please post whatever info made you think the engine was wholly analog controlled.
The US has so much more aircraft, and better aircraft, then any conceivable threat that it's really more "if the enemy has planes flying to North America they fucked up"
true. im sure the air national guard would get an erection if they were able to shoot down something for once.
People ITT seem to want us ready for the Alien invasion.
just use this stuff
Well 20 years ago they almost got to shoot down a 757-222.
But that was a very sad erection.
The army has over 1000 Patriot systems deployed. What else do you need? Or you basically asking for our own equivalents of army specific systems like Tunguska, Tor, Pantsir, Kub, Buk, Osa i.e. AD systems whose specific purpose is to support the ground forces?
>tfw the only reason the planes headed for the towers werent shot down was because the guard responders thought it wasnt a big deal
how disappointing.
>t. sparky
IADS are useless for us because our main borders are ocean. They're for slowing down enemies enough for your tanks to catch up with them.
You're advocating crippling the main effort for a short-sighted operational fetish.
>what would we do in the event of a large scale aerial invasion (I known it's unlikely) by some hypothetical peer opponent?
Send in the Air Force and the Air National Guards, this is what the DoD plans.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_National_Guard
to be fair, they werent very effective.
Gotta remember that nobody thought the aircraft were going to be used as weapons. Hijackings before then had mostly landed, made stupid demands then got killed.
Unlike the Russians the ANG didn't have any experience shooting down airliners filled with people.
Well.. how do you measure that? Were they 0% effective because they were never used, or 100% effective because they were never needed?
>Hijackings before then had mostly landed, made stupid demands then got killed.
not true, there were suicidal hijackings before 9/11. en.wikipedia.org
the whole reason the army took them out of service was because they didnt expect hit rates to be very good with the advance of bombers and ICBMs
>1000 Patriot systems deployed
What does that even mean? 1000 missiles? 1000 rocket carrying trucks? 1000 radars? 1000 command trucks? Use real numbers.
If you think it wouldnt have been useful even in Iraq you are high.
They have close to 800 in active service.
>this one autist ITT anrgily demanding that we have vatnik style support IADS for the army
That's only if you include the MiG-41 space fighter.
1000 Launchers. Between that, the MANPADs, and the paltry number of Avenger systems, how much more mobile and static AD does the army need in your opinion?
what is this from?
We go to spes, komrade
Why would our enemies want to help us?
>risk murdering a wayward man because he might allah Akbar some property
USSR was more civil than the west.
Ae you seriously telling me this guy shouldn't have been fucking wacked by the Commies for his imbecility? I hat communists as much as Alan Torni did but what this irresponsible cunt did would've landed him years in prison in the US.
Ok 1000 launchers at four launchers per radar and four radars per command truck isnt that many, but its enough to force an enemy air force to fly low to avoid it. Now that we have forced them to fly low.... Ahat do we shoot them with? Plus Patriot is like DivArty it wont respond to threats on the dot or be able to talk to commanders at the front.
For infantry I want every squad to have a minimum of four shoulder launched rockets ranged two to three kilometers altitude five kilometers slant, they can be dual purpose anti tank I dont care, we already jizz millions per Javelin team and we use them to take out mud huts.
I want a missile or gun based system with 5km altitude and 10km slant range that can fire on the move or after a short stop. I want one with every platoon, and I want them to talk to each other and network with the shoulder fired missiles. ADATS is good or RIM or a Phalanx mounted on a truck.
Between that and the Patriot I want the SLAMRAAM or a similar option.
And the patriot lacks flexibility itself.
Thats the bare minimum, most of these things can be dual purpose and the cost is well below single purpose systems we have deployed. The short ranged rocket can be $10k and we pay about $200k for the Jav for example, if its top attack it has the diameter to mount a heat that will go through any tank top to bottom.
>he was literally a commie psyop to prove how nice they were
user look at a map. Anyone feasibly trying to air attack America is flying over the entire Arctic Sea and Canada. The Russian bomber fleet is aged and seen many miles away, and Chinas is fledgling, and no fighter wing is flying that far. Due to early warning systems theres really no way to pull it off without us knowing in advance and the USAF being dispatched
In a scenario like that, we would build a lot more stuff.
We don't face a scenario like that, so we haven't.