Using 9mm for self-defense

9mm is only useful for self offense

MUH FORTIFICATION

Faggot passive defense has not worked since maginot. The explosion americans can go through windows or catch you outside.

The reasoning is the lack of stopping power, I'd rather .45 myself.

>he doesn't have bars on his windows

>
>
>The reasoning is the lack of stopping power, I'd rather .45 myself.

I.e in close quarters, you want to be able to mitigate as much forward momentum as possible, because if your rushing headlong as someone with a weapon in, lets say a hallway, and you have no room to manoeuvre, a couple of quick snap 9mm aint gunna slow anything down in the moment.

.45 is as weak as .38 and hits like .32, it's shit compared to almost every modern ammo.

Sure you like, choose an example other than 45acp, the overall point is really just the notion of stopping power,

Now in a different context the rules change, i.e why we went down to a smaller round with infantry rifles, because in the context of warfare, at least as things were seen, it would be advantageous for a couple of reasons, at least some would argue so. But again, I can't think of two more polar opposite situations than battle vs personal defence.

>
>
>Sure you like, choose an example other than 45acp, the overall point is really just the notion of stopping power,
>
>Now in a different context the rules change, i.e why we went down to a smaller round with infantry rifles, because in the context of warfare, at least as things were seen, it would be advantageous for a couple of reasons, at least some would argue so. But again, I can't think of two more polar opposite situations than battle vs personal defence.
>
>

And dont forget, I'm just talking about comparative stopping power, i.e in the example of a 9mm vs 45acp. I'm nit trying to say anything the quality of 45acp vs a different round that is greater than 9mm.

>using 10mm for self-defense

Attached: 1551287960222.jpg (720x471, 28K)

Stopping power doesn’t real. Placement is what stops. Also 32ACP is patrician.

9mm with hollow points grouped in center mass will drop anyone. It’s the best self defense round anything else is needlessly more.

Stopping power is very much a thing, your not always going to have the time or opportunity for perfect placement.

I would just love to say that I randomly pulled the notion of stopping power out of my ass after playing half an hour of CoD or w/e the current equivalent is. As it happens it is a discussion I have had with more than a handful of ex and active servicemen in the UK.

It's a thing.

Just use .357 sig like a real man.

Once again, we are talking about personal defence here, quite likely in a tight urban environment, very close confines and closer ranges. Remember as well that the pace of the engagement is vastly different to something that you would see on the battlefield. You are not always going to have and opportunity for well placed shots, multiple shots, etc.

Its a good reason as to the notion of stopping power being a thing. You also have to remember its literal momentum, if your attacker is moving towards you at full speed, and you cant move out of the way, lets pretend he has a knife for the purpose of the example, now you may have just been jumped from a side alley, and barring someone having preternatural reflexes, you also to draw and aim your weapon, which might involving pulling a 180.

The thing is, even if you do get a shot off or two of 9mm center mass, that physical momentum of your attacker is going to carry on towards you, very much unarrested, because of the lack of impact, not the lack of trauma, lack of impact.

Now I anticipate someone else will say "loooool hurr theres no difference between a 9mm and a snub nose, bullets are too smol compared to h00m4nz to effect like dat".

Incorrect, there is a world of difference between getting with a 9mm and a large handgun round. Now dont be silly and think of it in terms of purely linear motion, because thats not how the kinetics of this are going to work.

You think a few grams can stop the momentum of 100000 grams?

You clearly didnt read the full post did you? "Dont be silly and think of it terms of purely linear motion, that's not how the kinetics of the situation work"

But since you seem to have no understanding of kinetics or momentum, in regards to a complex moving object. I will explain it to you.

Example: You are printing towards me

I put a 9mm in your lower left torso, let's imagine a best case scenario and the round does not immediately exit the body. If it passes straight through there's very little disturbance in your sprinting at me, and if it does pass through, theres going to more movement going with your body, and of you keep reading it will make sense

I put a large handgun round in your lower left torso, a round that hits a lot harder, your body is going to take that impact harder, your going to rotate more in involuntary response to the round, stumble more, much more likely to go down.

Look up what a lot of american soldiers thought of the new small calibre after it got stepped down, they hated it, looked like a toy, felt a toy, and when you shot someone l, they went down less.

>
>
>
>But since you seem to have no understanding of kinetics or momentum, in regards to a complex moving object. I will explain it to you.
>
>Example: You are printing towards me
>
>I put a 9mm in your lower left torso, let's imagine a best case scenario and the round does not immediately exit the body. If it passes straight through there's very little disturbance in your sprinting at me, and if it does pass through, theres going to more movement going with your body, and of you keep reading it will make sense
>
>I put a large handgun round in your lower left torso, a round that hits a lot harder, your body is going to take that impact harder, your going to rotate more in involuntary response to the round, stumble more, much more likely to go down.
>
>Look up what a lot of american soldiers thought of the new small calibre after it got stepped down, they hated it, looked like a toy, felt a toy, and when you shot someone l, they went down less.

And if it doesn't pass through**** and various other typo's I cba to fix, enjoy.

>Stopping power is very much a thing
No, it's not. Not in the realm of handgun cartridges, anyways.
>your not always going to have the time or opportunity for perfect placement.
If you are not hitting the CNS you are merely hoping for a psychological stop, that is hoping the opponent will quit further action due to pain and fear associated with getting shot and possibly weakness/shortness of breath caused by hemorrhage/punctured lungs (neither of which is capable of instantly incapacitating the opponent on its own, physiologically speaking there is nothing stopping you from going on for 30-60 seconds even if you got shot in the heart and lungs, which is enough time to still be a threat). Psychological stops are not affected by caliber to any noticeable degree. You will feel just as awful when shot in the same place regardless of whether it's 9mm, .40, .45, 10mm, etc. And if you wanted to quit after getting shot with a 10, you would quit when shot with a 9 too. You wouldn't even be able to tell the difference, just that you got fucking shot.

>inb4 why not use .22 LR then
Because you still need adequate penetration to reach vitals you want to hit and rimfire cartridges are inherently unreliable due to uneven distribution of the priming compound in the rim (duds) and poor feeding.

>"Yes I use a Tokarev for self-defense and shoot at cops, how could you tell?"

Attached: gopnik.jpg (600x450, 61K)

>proven 117 year old track record
>most research and develop of any defensive round
>high capacity easy to shoot from relatively small guns
>cheap to practice with
>statistics have proven it as affective as anything else.
Yeah, whatever alternative you're shilling for is better right? Right?

Center mass is wrong. Shoot upper thoracic

>Shoot upper thoracic
So center mass?

Center mass is in your hips. Ironically, still a fantastic place to shoot someone.

Oh you are just arguing semantics then. I suppose we could call it "Center area" but it's not quite as catchy, don't you think?

vitals normally refers to heart/lung

it's more between your heart and tummy

Shooting center mass is much more than just hearts/lungs. It's the spine, it's the high possibility of hitting the neck/head if you miss high, still more spine and pretty important bits if you miss low, etc.

Maybe if you're built like shit.

It's important for science.

it's only hips if youre built like a curvy woman

>It's important for science.
No really, using non-literal terms isn't detrimental to science at all. What if I told you that 3 in .223 is just to distinguish it from .22, .221 and .222?

What if I told you the diameter of the bullet before and after entering the barrel were different?

Right. Not looking to just gut shoot someone so they need three days in an ICU to put their intestines back together. Rather pop both lungs, destroy the heart, sever the aorta and shatter the spine.

What if I told you that caliber is in fact the propery of the chamber, not the cartridge itself?

Well, the barrel with the chamber, to be exact. Not the cartridge, that's the main one.

I can’t see a difference between a 9mm hollow point and a 45, for our purpose that is. I just cannot believe a man running at you who takes 3 hollow point 9mm to the chest can keep coming. Why would the massive wound cavity pushing all of his organs around not forcibly remove him from the fight? Not trying to argue just trying to wrap my mind around this

>All that bullshit. Source: your ass.

A 9mm and a .38 are the same caliber of bullet. 9 mm can also exceed the power .38 p+ self defense loads, and 9 mm p+ can hit 357 Magnum levels of performance when compared to the same length of barrel. If you don't believe me check Wikipedia. If you don't like Wikipedia for their political leanings then check out Remington, Winchester, CCI, or whatever other ammo company that you go with and look at the round specifications -especially the bullet weights- and speeds and then search up how to calculate energy foot pounds of force, and do the math yourself. There is no huge significant difference between , 9mm, 38 special, .357sig, .45acp, .45gap, .327fed mag, or .40s&w, or even .357mag out of a 3" barrel, the length of barrel one normally has when concealed carrying. Because the terminal velocity of each round and each caliber out of the most common barrel length being equatable stopping power is a meme. It always has been. It always will be. The numbers show it, practical tests show it, usage in the field shows it. Whether or not you listen to the data is not my problem.

>If you don't like Wikipedia for their political leanings
Elaborate, I need a laugh.

>32ACP
>patrician

Attached: laughs in new starline brass.jpg (1024x576, 37K)

>If you are not hitting the CNS you are merely hoping for a psychological stop
Exactly, that's why I carry a subcompact .357 SIG to maximize psychological stopping power.

This. .357SIG is a real man's 9mm

Attached: 1429668669014.jpg (803x688, 109K)

>why yes I do use .22lr for self defense, most burglars aren't going to wear kevlar

Attached: eDQvTAB.jpg (1080x1331, 97K)

>Statistically, caliber used isn't highly correlated with the likelihood of surviving a gunfight
>Statistically, .45 ACP is only about 5% more likely to incapacitate on the first shot than 9mm
>Statistically, the most important piece of information for estimating who will survive a gunfight is who fires first, which is up to the wielder and not the caliber
>Statistically, the second most important piece of information is who fires the most shots, which is aided by higher capacity of 9mm
>Retards still BIG BOOM GOOD LITTLE BOOM BAD at the expense of their lives
With 9mm I can shoot six guys nearly three times each or I can shoot one guy 17 times. Either way, I like those odds.

Attached: butthead.png (1016x716, 1.48M)

There is nothing to wrap your mind around, it's fucking fuddlore. He's either ignorant or deliberately misleading you.

Or, you can get a 5-7 with 30rnd mag and shoot 3 dudes 10 times or 10 dudes 3 times.

>jumped by six fucking dudes
You are going to fire 2-5 times, hit one, and the rest scatter.

Sorry for the lack of comedic value, but there's not much to say. It's just that they're left leaning and some people get bent out of shape over it.

>I just cannot believe a man running at you who takes 3 hollow point 9mm to the chest can keep coming.
He could. He would almost surely keep going with 3 .45s too, all things being equal.
>Why would the massive wound cavity pushing all of his organs around not forcibly remove him from the fight?
You have to ask yourself, why would it? If his state of mind is sufficently altered by drugs or just adrenaline and fight response, there's really no organ that's necessary to keep going for a small period of time other than the spine and brain. Doesn't matter if his heart is pumping blood, doesn't matter if his lungs are supplying oxygen, all that matters is his muscles are still full of oxygenated blood at the moment and they are still connected to the brain with oxygenated blood controlling them. That's all it takes to function.

Wrong. You fire 10 times, hit at least one, and keep shooting even as they scatter. Never miss the opportunity to sweep up nogs.

Attached: everyone.gif (500x370, 1.88M)

>It's just that they're left leaning
How is it left leaning? Pretty much all major examples of its so called left leanings are just including content some conservatives don't like. A truly neutral encyclopedia shouldn't care about likes or dislikes of any particular group. I'm sure a bit of bias from both sides slips in from time to time, but I can't say I ever saw anything significant ever.

Look, I personally don't have a problem with Wikipedia. I like what they do, and I like that they cite their sources. But I am just repeating to you what I have heard and the reasons I have been given. I have heard that the gamergate issue is quite a bit biased towards the individuals is that were involved gamergate.

Meh. Just stagger FMJ and Hollow Point in a double stack, and you are good against everything from people to bears
>muh body armor
then your right fucked aren't you? Get a .50 BMG.

I swear, the French and Swiss both have the absolute sweetest looking WW2 to Cold War pistols.

>self offense
Slip and slide?

Why don't they?

Is 22lr good for self defense

I use 10mm so I don't have to worry about anything

If your behind a car I can still kill ya

If your wearing anything but level 4 armor, your fucked

If your a bear / robot / beardroid you'll be getting sent directly to robobear hell.

Attached: 1568780876491 (1).jpg (779x1423, 424K)

This or 10mm

It's far from ideal, but it's better than nothing, especially for an inexperienced shooter.

what the actual fuck am i reading

I can't find any Averages on the width of the Human spine. But one would think the size difference between 45acp and 9mm would increase the margin of error that much more.

>45 starting diameter 11.5mm.
>9mm starting diameter...9mm.
That is a bit over 20 percent wider, But then consider average Expanded sizes:
>45 expanded diameter a bit over 18mm.
>9mm expanded diameter almost 16mm.
Roughly half the difference.
So then it comes down to opinions of Recoil vs. Momentum etc.
Something to consider.

Attached: 45acp_vs_9mm.png (894x541, 353K)

If you're not shooting at least 12mm ammo, is it really a gun? Might as well throw rocks at them in that case.

Home defense with .600 nitro express, leave no remains of nignog behind.

You are a troll or an actual fucking retard. If a pistol exerts a force on you it cant exert a stronger force on the target, it just isnt possible. Go shoot a 100 pound target with a rifle and see what happens fatass. People dont go flying from gunshots like in the movies and 80 IQ muhreens didnt understand what was happening.

Attached: 42656941_1365196346948886_7344820158390599680_n.jpg (292x171, 11K)

>stoppan powuh
Okay, why are you shilling .45 when you need to be shilling .357?

Point is you cant use bullets to effectively "slow down" a person. If you shoot a guy and he stops/drops its either him reacting to the injury or he just recieved damage to his CNS. "Stopping power" is a meme from the 1800s that should have died in the 1980s.

didnt mean to respond to this bro

Attached: 49204748_327861041155181_2474534287920070656_n.jpg (720x960, 36K)

Someone pls post the webm of that ~130 lbs emo kid getting ventilated with a .45

>not EDCing a 1911 chambered in 38 super

Attached: 1512006351865.png (533x510, 477K)

>using anything other than .22
You're missing out on free fertilizer and hog feed, boys.

They'd have to steal it first.

nigger.

Attached: ^027026787FFF00D67B4F68249125161D8869CE7AE4B3EB71D6^pimgpsh_fullsize_distr.jpg (720x720, 37K)

another gay 9mm bad thread

Tell it to Trayvon.

>USING A GUN FOR SELF DEFENSE
Are you like 5 years old? Smh

Attached: a3b6843beec5eade2d48cc0ba8c4d355.jpg (528x640, 44K)

None of the 3 most common handgun cartridges, 9mm, .40, or .45, have enough velocity, even out of full size barrels, to produce a temporary wound cavity that is actually damaging to surrounding tissue, at least to a point that concerns stopping a threat.
Most people who die from handgun wounds die from hypovolemic shock due to blood loss from having multiple holes in their body. In particular having put a hole into solid organs that bleed a lot internally over time which is obviously not ideal (Liver, and especially kidneys) or vital cardiovascular structure (Heart, major blood vessels, either of which will likely cause unconsciousness in a less than a minute if not seconds which is obviously much more what we are looking for), and not directly due to the destruction of a particular tissue or organ.

This in mind, what we want to accomplish is physical incapacitation, that is: causing bodily damage in such a fashion that it is literally not physically possible for the attack to continue.
This is done only by either putting them, often fatally, into hypovolemic shock as fast as possible, which more bullets will certainly help facilitate, or by compromising their central nervous system whether that is a hit to the brain or the spine, it really dont matter which usually unless they happen to already be sitting. Suddenly dropping to the ground involuntarily because you have now instantly and permenantly lost the ability to stand is quite a surprise and a person may just let go of a weapon upon such a shock. May, not will. Hitting the brain does not require explanation other than that it is obscenely vascularized for obvious reasons and will again be death from bloodloss, because the only part of your brain technically needed to sustain life is the brain stem.
At any rate, the CNS is a tiny target and it is stupid to think you will hit it in a stressful situation, not to mention aiming for it. Again, more bullets makes it a bit more likely. Pain is not a factor.

Ran out of space
TL;DR is more bullets gooder then less

9mm is fine, shithead

ITS NERF OR NOTHIN

Attached: 1569203727694.png (212x238, 7K)

Nice bait Fudd

>he doesn't use 7.62x54R FMJ for home defense
Sad!

Not if I'm behind the engine compartment

Your arms hang down. You don't walk around vitruvian.
You talk nonsense.