Starting Strength is the OG

You should be doing dips and chins eventually, but yeah, SS+TM are what natty lifters need to do for their first 9-12 months of lifting.

Tell me why i should do power cleans.

To confirm and insure that power development remains consistent with strength development.

What if i dont give a shit about that and i just want to get bigger and stronger and don't want to do them?

Enjoy being slow
>not clean and jerking people's deadlifts.

Ok, im sold.

>same upper and lower volume
Upper body requires more volume than lower, and you're hitting legs three times a week vs chest 1.5. Push pull ratio is completely off too.

Post your physique.

>Push pull ratio is completely off too.
Power cleans hit the back, and so do chin-ups.

Perhaps it would be better to say you are training, not performing. In a competition you can strain your body as much as you please because only wining matters. But when training you are trying to ride an undulating wave of stress and recovery. Overtraining crashes the wave.

Attached: RipDL.webm (540x360, 2.9M)

Rip has always been the OG. fads come and go, the latest PPL or brosplit fade away eventually. SS remains.

>soyboys need not apply
youtube.com/watch?v=Xxe61AwcHz0&t=332s

Attached: Rip squat.webm (270x360, 2.92M)

>Upper body requires more volume than lower

In order to...what? Get stronger? Incorrect, bigger muscles need more volume to disrupt homeostasis, not less. Upper body muscles require less volume.

What, then? To be exactly the same size as your lower body? Then you’re looking for a body building program, not a strength training program.

Squats are performed on SS more because they train the muscles required to stand up straight and pick shit up, which humans do more than anything else. It also trains everything under the bar to some degree, if only as stabilisers for some groups.

The point of SS is to build as much strength as quickly and efficiently as possible. This logically involves putting more effort into the bigger muscles that grow faster and take longer to recover, because most of your strength will come from those and they slow everything down.

If you want to be some useless balloon idiot with spindly little legs go bitch somewhere else.

Do other shit then or change to a routine that will give you more days. I like to do bouldering and outdoor running between lift days. Cardio is vital for good health anyway.

GPP day:
cardio: LISS or HIIT
Upper back work
Arms
Abs

do this once or twice a week

Fair enough. I'm fairly busy and need the time but enjoy knowing that I'm recovering for my workout tomorrow. Then I wake up tomorrow and go fuck I'm squatting haha.

Currently at the Squat/OHP/Chin and Squat/Bench/Deadlift stage. Running into grip issues with deadlift at 130kg. Normally throw in curls and tricep pushdowns because my arms were like chopsticks.

Personally I do deadlifts every other workout rather than alternating between power cleans and deadlifts.

I'm fine with that.

You're now comparing legs to bench ratio. Include OHP and wow, you've got a 1:1 push to legs ratio. Guess what, it's 1:1:1 P:P:L, 1:1 U:L. How is that a bad ratio?

Almost as nice to watch as Platz.

Danke schoen.

Im doing SS with rows instead of cleans (don't murder me lads). Only a few lbs away from 1/2/3/4pl8 and I'm so fucking excited. Also, despite what others have said, do chins and dips, they will murder your arms after all the pulling and pushing.

My question, madcows seems a logical program to do to squeeze the last bit of gains after 1/2/3/4. I'm didn't do the Rippetoe diet and I eat a lot of Cal's (3500-4000) but I control my carb intake very strictly. So I've been told my LP won't take as long. Madcows seems to contain a lot more accessory work than TM and I love the back off set of 8 you do for the big lifts. Since once I'm strong I want to focus on getting huge (strength will remain important in progression, but it won't be my be and end of all focus), is madcows a better choice?

Love this thread btw it's about time.

>short workouts
t. dyel

>if you want to be some useless balloon idiot go bitch somewhere else

You do realize that 99% lift for aesthetics and don't give a fuck about strength?

It's precisely the meme "hurr durr you need to do ss before going for hypertrophy" that creates so much hate for the program. The program isn't bad, it's just the wrong program for many people, and they should know it.

I started ss a fee years ago with an ss coach and fucked uo my lower back on overhead press. Took time off , fucked it up again. Took time off. Now im starting with a physical therapist to fix lower back and hopefully get to be able to do compound lifts someday

Strength drives how much weight you can lift for a set of 8. Higher weight is bigger muscles. Even the best bodybuilders will have the odd day focusing purely on doubles and singles for strength gains because there is a crossover.

>fucked up my lower back on overhead press
.. whatisthisidon'teven

Been there too, it’s from hyperflexion

If you wanna get bigger do an upper lower but keep compounds to low reps to maintain strength.

In 2 weeks you have:
18 sets of squats
9 sets of bench
9 sets of press
3 sets of deadlift
9 sets of power cleans (which aren't even that good at working the back, hopefully chinups are done instead).

That's 18 presses and 12 pulls, or 3:2. At least it should be 2:3 since most people have fucked up posture and working the back will fix it.

You're hitting chest, the muscle that most people care about 1.5 times a week. That's not enough even for strength gains. Same thing with shoulders. The only reason people gain strength is because the triceps are getting stronger, not your chest and shoulders

0 rowing pulls is stupid as well.

SS isn't THAT bad, I did it with great results, but certainly there are more optimal and balanced programs

Obviously, but it would make more sense to train both ways, having exercises at 3x5 for strength and doing 3x10 after for extra volume.

Because u are a little beta soyboy faggot that is doing the first kind of physical activity since his childhood

Not him, but you sound like a knowledgeable fella, so I'll ask you this. I'm doing Stronglifts and so far have made pretty good strength gains, but my end goal is more aesthetics driven, but with a strong foundation. At what point should I change to a bodybuilding/aesthetics routine and which one do you recommend?

>The only reason people gain strength is because the triceps are getting stronger, not your chest and shoulders

Hmm. Never thought about it this way. I think I'll do my bench weight on tricep pushdowns today.

Kek

If you read practical programming, you would know that they advocate doing 2-3 sets of 8-12 as backoff sets for those looking for aesthetics, with slower strength gain as a tradeoff.

***For those who have exclusively finished their linear progression and onto intermediate programming***

Bump for interest on this.

>linear progression
ok
>equal volume for upper and lower body
this is not a good thing
>good deload procedure
absolutely not
>simple program structure with short workouts
yes, biggest selling point of the program right here
>develops strength
so does any not retarded program

Barbell Medicine have come up with a plug-in for SSLP to increase upper body work, pic related. And also, nobody ever counts the pullups or chinups in SS.

And Has anyone tried The Bridge By Feigenbaum and Baraki yet?

Attached: 7A202D7D-3E28-4C95-AB81-A22FBAEABA72.png (640x1136, 123K)

When you’re no longer getting linear progression

Just because your chest and shoulders aren't getting stronger that doesn't mean they are doing 0 kg of force in the bench and press. Your reply is nonsense.

learn to brace properly jesus christ

That's quite good desu, why do you say nobody counts the pullups and chinups?

The low bar squat outside of pl competitions is an ego lift

Strip a plate off each side, squat properly (highbar, arse touching your ankles) and you'll feel it far more than you will any low bar halfsquat

Reg park or Arthur jones programs are far superior

When people argue that there is not enough upper body work in SS, they almost never count the pullups. They always compare the sets of squats/ deadlift/ power cleans to just press / bench press.
I‘m afraid a lot of people dont know there are pullups and back extensions in SS. They just argue with Information from the Internet. Seems like noone actually read the book.

Oh, I see. So I should definitely be able to do my bench weight minus my chest fly weight? Thanks, friend.

>See this is like this because
Rip has 100 pages on why lowbar squatting is better for overall muscle development and posterior chain activation compared to highbar, do you have a single fact to back up your statement?

When people say there is not enough upper body work, they mean that there is not enough upper body work on all three plains of movement.
Even worse, One of the upper body movements is also a lower body movement.
Cumulative upperbody movement =/= direct optimal upper body work.

One of the coaches for the actual Olympic team has already gone through this; the lowbar squat is a loophole in pl competitions but does not develop nearly the strength or athletic carryover that a real squat does

coffeesgym.wordpress.com/2013/06/22/the-low-bar-squat-is-not-an-exercise/

I'll take the advice of coffee and klokov over the guy who made a career out of introducing people who've never touched a weight to PL

SS is a routine to get you started. It will last for maybe 3-4 months, if you do it right, which you almost certainly won't.

If you're some hyper newfag all super stoked about finally "getting in shape" in order to accomplish whatever delusions you hope it will accomplish, you need to settle down and do SS.

Just going "hard" in the gym every goddamn day is what idiots do. It's sound and fury signifying idiocy and admiring your ribs in the mirror.

If you've done SS or something similar halfway correctly, and thus adapted to the stress of lifting and recovering from it to a large extent, working out more days per week is an option. It can even help fit exercise in among Life to do more workouts, but keep them shorter.

A very simplified example would be to squat one day, bench the next, and deadlift after that, repeating and resting every seventh day because even God would need to give that heavy ass weight a rest. Instead of squat/bench/deadlift two or three days per week.

>The mechanics are different
>Some dude wrote some text that basically says "NO, SQUATS SHOULD NOT INVOLVE THE HAMSTRINGS, THIS IS NOT REAL SQUATTING, SEE IT DOESN'T CARRY TO THE HIGHBAR, I'M OLD!"
...are you fucking dense?
That article in no way proves anything contrary to what we have said, if you'd rather do a movement that works less muscles, suit yourself, but the average person doing SS is training for strength and muscle, and does a single 1x5 dl if following the program. To keep the program the same and make the squats highbar will just leave your hamstrings in the fucking gutter.

Only GDEs don't do power cleans

>Push pull ratio

Is a completely irrelevant metric pulled out of the asshole of idiots. What matters is the weight you are moving and the muscles moving it, not some dubious distinction between push and pull.

You're far better off running a full body golden six type routine then transitioning into HIT for hypertrophy purposes

>I'll take the advice of coffee and klokov over the guy who made a career out of introducing people who've never touched a weight to PL

But the latter's advice is MUCH more relevant to you personally.

>short workouts
????

Again, do you have some proof?
Rip has trained a ton of people over decades and refined his strength program for novices. Hypertrophy is not even the goal of SS.

Also the golden six include behind neck OHP, which is a retarded exercise as it just begs for injury given the positions involved.

>9 sets of power cleans (which aren't even that good at working the back

Power cleans are an amazing back exercise. They will also put a ton of meat on your upper traps and shoulder girdle in general. If you do chin-ups IN ADDITION (not instead), that covers your whole back right there. It also makes the push pull ratio even (even ignoring the fact that OHP works muscles associated with "pulls" like the traps).

Chest is fucking meme anyway.

>Also the golden six include behind neck OHP, which is a retarded exercise as it just begs for injury given the positions involved.

You probably think power cleans are "complicated" too, you fuckin GDE

VERY fast barbell moving at incredible hihg speed

I power clean consistently as part of my routine faggot.
If you think placing your shoulders in maximal external rotation before doing a shoulder movement is a good idea, because some roiding bodybuilder does it, fuckign go ahead.

It's literally used as a Snatch accessory by weightlifters. Nothing dangerous about behind the neck press if you don't have existing shoulder issues.

>squeeze your glutes like someone's gonna rape you in prison
>squeeze your abs like someone's gonna punch you in the stomach

That many people do it doesn't mean anything, as you should know from any pop fitness garbage that normies do.
The mechanics of the behind neck OHP can't really be discussed, they put the shoulder at dangerous levels of rotation.
It's similar to people who bench without retracting scapula and at 90 degrees. Sure you may get away with it for who knows how long, but eventually it's more that you'll fuck something up if you do enough volume and weight. And when someone comes around and tell you "I got injured by this" you'll probably say something like "ah but I see other people do it and they are fine"

If you can't handle BTN press, you are a GDE.

What I'm saying:
>SS is suboptimal for chest and shoulder development
What you're saying:
>I CAN'T DO X EXERCISE WITH THE SAME WEIGHT AS Y EXERCISE

Of course you can't. Different muscle mass, different ROM, different planes of movement. You are just being stupid now, it has nothing to do with what I said in the first place.

DYEL

OHP can easily fuck up your back, especially the SS way

youtube.com/watch?v=2pQZNGdkVck

this
i fell for the meme and became a trex
never again
fuck u Jow Forums

>push pull ratio is an irrelevant metric

Almost everyone nowadays have forward head and thoracic kyphosis from too much sitting. Overtraining your chest relative to the back will make it worse. How exactly do you expect people to squat or overhead press if they can't even reach the full ROM?

>Can't handle it
Lol. The mechanics of the movement are clear, whatever I do or don't do is completely irrelevant.

>Turning an OHP into a standing incline bench
Kek. Rip has some great advice, but also goes full retard sometimes.

100 pages he pulled straight out of his ass, nobody should take the advice of a guy who squatted 600 equipped at 220lbs while taking steroids and exclusively trains beginners that seriously

strongerbyscience.com/high-bar-and-low-bar-squatting-2-0/

it literally doesn't fucking matter, pick the one you like better

for hypertrophy and stuff outside of PL highbar is generally a little better of a choice because you can get away with lighter loading and less wear on the body, but again it doesn't fucking matter you can get strong and big with either one

I'm reading the book right now and it makes sense the way he explains his program. But there is something off at an intuitive level to doing less work on chest and shoulders when those muscles are what most men what developed.

The number of sets for upper body seems low at a glance and any time I've had to explain the program to any massive gym bud (who had never once heard of it) they immediately point out there is nowhere near enough work for decent pecs and delts. I like the book but I'm not sure about the program. If you're spending your time in the gym it doesn't make sense to do less of what you want to build.

Attached: Hj9VYCZ_d.jpg (640x477, 44K)

I also usually see faster progression at first with legs over chest for a lot of people. Not to mention the fat people I see going in with starting strength obviously will (at best) t-rex themselves.

>100 pages he pulled straight out of his ass
It makes mechanical sense, the diagrams and physics make sense, and actually performing the exercise as he says clearly nets more activation of the posterior chain.
The article you linked yourself shows that depending on bar position certain muscles work more or less (hip flexors, spine erectors). If you think that difference is relevant or not, that's up to personal interpretation. Rip just says "yes, the more posterior chain activation we get, the better", while othe people may say "actually we want less hips and more back in our squat. Have it be a quad exercise and just deadlift more if you want hamstrings"

There are programs available if you want to be a bodybuilder.

but you have to pretty much have to deadlift more, or do some type of hip hinge (not necessarily conventional dl), for hamstrings

basic biomechanics (Lombard's paradox) and every EMG study ever done on squats very clearly tells us that the squat is not a way to train the hamstrings

it trains the adductor magnus, which people (and Rippetoe apparently) often confuse for the hamstrings because of its location, but there is essentially no change in length for the hamstrings

But the article you posted even cites [Wilk, 1996] with a diagram of EMG hamstring activation during the squat.
SS is a novice program where you only do deadlifts 1x5, after squatting. While I personally don't agree with this, for the program it makes sense to keep the more posterior chain dominant squat as the dl volume is so small. Apparently it works based on the people he has choached and the dls linearly progress.

The overtraining thing is completely overexaggerated. If I were to do SS again I would add at least some light 3x10 of the alternate press to the end of every workout, like 531 BBB does. Twice the frequency and extra volume should greatly improve hypertrophy.

i ran SS way back when up to a 500x1 deadlift and IDNDTP and used highbar instead

either style of squat will carry over bigtime to the conventional deadlift

i think it would be a good idea to replace the PCs with RDLs or something for more posterior chain volume though (i don't think anyone does the PCs anyway)

Doesn't the actual program tells you to add upper body acessories? Chinups, dips, curls, bb rows.

Whatever you guys are bitching at each other about aside, I thought Ripp quit competing in PL comps because he wasn't willing to juice. He only had a 1600ish natty total according to one of his interviews and realized to actually compete he would have to pin so got out.

you think front squats would work too?

If the hamstrings aren't worked in the squat, how exactly are you keeping your back angle and not falling forward? The squat is roughly a leg press and a good morning together.

no, he used steroids by his own admission

he quit because he realized he did not have the genetics to be competitive, and realized that if he was not going to be competitive it made no sense to risk injuries with PL training anymore

Attached: ripptoe roids.png (644x436, 17K)

I can't say much about personal experience because I never ran the program in a strict fashion. I've kept my squats mostly mixed, not due to specific preference, but because I lack the proper shoulder flexibility to keep my wrists straight in lowbar squats.

the hamstrings are contracting, just not changing in length because they cross two joints

this accounts for the small EMG activation, but contraction without change in length is inferior for hypertrophy/strength

if you want to dynamically contract the hamstrings you limit knee flexion (like with a conv. deadlift or an RDL/SLDL at the extreme pure hip hinge end of the spectrum) while hinging at the hips

i know a lot of lifters swear by front squat as a deadlift accessory because the thoracic erector demands are extremely high and that helps with keeping position off the floor on the deadlift

>What matters is the muscles moving it
that's what push/pull means you fucking mong

Underrated kek

Attached: 1518609433512.png (673x673, 557K)

I meant, is it plausible to LP front squat as my main movement if I don't plan to compete? Back squats seem to give me issues and I can't get stronger because I'm constantly trying to fix it, but my front squat form is fine.

> i dont give a fuck about strength i just wanna get big bro

yeah, when you're natty you dont get to decide like that retard
strength = size/aesthetics
show me one natty who looks good who benches 135
literally anyone who denies this in 2018 is a fucking idiot

yes

you're not doing the fucking program, but yes, it's perfectly possible to LP front squats and use them as a primary lift

How do I know when i'm done with SS?

the only way to get stronger in the long term is to add muscle mass, and by training for hypertrophy you will be getting stronger as well (just like by training for strength, you will be getting bigger as well), the only difference between strength training and lifting for size/aesthetics is exercise selection and the rep ranges are generally higher for size oriented programs

it makes no sense for someone who cares about size primarily and strength as a secondary concern to do programs entirely focused on strength when they could do an upper lower with more volume and get bigger quicker and still get pretty strong

the whole strength vs size training thing is the most fucking retarded false dichotomy ever and i have no idea why it still persists on Jow Forums other than that this place is perpetually full of novices

Your lifts all stall for a while or you qualify as an intermediate lifter by symmetric strength standards