Starting Strength

Any recommendations on what to add?

yes.

If you're starting from scratch natty, unless you have godly genetics, you will NOT get decent weight in a few months. No fucking way in hell. Not if your form is correct and you're doing proper ROM.

Where are you lagging?

Hanging leg raises, pull ups, dips, bicep curls

It does happen. You can continue doing the whole "anyone who makes better progress than me must be lying/wrong" bit if you like.

only accessories i'm doing are Hammer Curls and abs

age 22
weight 84kg
height 185cm

stats (for 5 reps)
Squat - 90kg
Dead - 100kg
Bench - 60kg (embarrassing)
OHP - 45kg

I'm stalling hard on Squats and Bench, mainly because my diet is still shit and I don't eat enough proteins a day, but I'm working on it.

I would've gotten to 100kg squat by now but I have shit technique and hurt my lower back every workout, so I had to reset to lower weights a few times to fix it.

I feel demotivated but i'll stfu and stick to SS for atleast half a year.

Get SS/SL under your belt for 12 weeks then switch up a bit.

I'm sort of looking for a new routine but right now, I am doing a modified version of PHUL.

I get my compounds in on monday and tuesday (with accessory work) then on Thu/Fri it's hypertrophy with compound lifts added, just lighter weight.

Example: Today is squat/OHP (+ accessories). I'll do full weight but since i'm on a cut (too high bf%) I don't add. When Thursday comes around I still do squat/ohp (+ different exercises for same accessories), just lighter weight for more reps. Think of it like de-loading every week.

Work on your core or you're going to snap your shit up.

To be perfectly honest with you, your upper body isn't lagging as much as you think. You're just fairy weak overall. I was pulling 225 with proper form after a week of getting it right and I had no strength-training/athletic baseline. It all just varies per person.

Your OHP isn't actually lagging, which is good news. Makes me think the problem is probably with your bench press form, or possible due to fear of getting hurt under the bar and not giving it your all. I'd suggest looking up jewtube videos on how to get the form right, brace your core, and all that shit.

Could you describe your benching and how/where you're failing your reps?

those lifts are proportional.

I just started a week ago, i wanted to try stronglifts but most of my friends (and even the guy that helped me my first week) told me it was better to do 5 days a week with a body part each day. Should i listen to them?

Do they look like they lift? If yes, listen to them; if no, don't.

yeah, they do lift

No, I mean, do they look jacked? If they don't, why would you listen to DYELs?

>listen to someone if they're big
this is how broscience spreads

Post original, tay is a slut

With the bench I had trouble understanding how to maintain my form throughout the lift, the bar was asymmetrical and my arms were not steady, so I wasted a lot of uneeded energy on that.

Now I mostly fixed that by recording myself and rewatching countless times. My arms still can't stay steady sometimes because they are still really small, but I guess that will fix itself in the next few months.

Are you digging your shoulders into the bench and pushing your chest out? Are your arms angling away from your midline at a roughly 45 degree angle? Is your grip width such that your forearms are perpendicular to the floor at the bottom of the press? Are you holding the bar so its in your lower-palm and sitting right above the wrist bones? Are you squeezing your abs, erectors, and quads to stabilize your body? Are you losing tightness unracking the bar?

Where are you failing? Is it when the bar is near your chest or is it halfway up? Describe what it's like when your form breaks down and you fail a rep

The trainer that helped me and one of my friends arent really THAT jacked, but they do have nice bodies and everything. I just feel i will look like an idiot

hang in there bud. once your ohp gets to 60kg, you start looking decent.

when i started to stall, i added what looks like a lot of assistance work when written down:

A
Squat
Bench
(then added 3x8 narrow grip db press- really squeeeeeeze your pecs)
Rows
Dips
Skullcrushers
Some face-pulls

B
Squat
OHP
(then added 3x10 side laterals to front raise)
Deadlift
Chin-ups
Pull-ups
Some face-pulls

did this until i hit 1/2/3/4
now i focus more on aesthetics with a PPL program but this provided me with an excellent foundation

As some other user said, i think i actually couldn't have progressed without the assistance even though Medhi from SL says you have to trust the program as written

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In general the rule of thumb is that you shouldn't be taking advice from randos at the gym, period. Doesn't matter if they're big or small, young or old, personal trainer or normal gymgoer, etc. The vast majority of the time they'll tell you absolute broscience bullshit like "don't squat below parallel" or "don't let your knees go beyond your toes", etc. Don't just assume that just because someone is big or seemingly qualified that their advice is good.

Luckily we have the internet now, and people don't have to rely on bullshit broscience word of mouth to figure out the do's and don'ts

Anyone having trouble doing ohp and bp at the same day? I started doing them on on separate days. I always finish with 2 or 3 sets if lateral raises for side delts because i care about my shoulders the most

I don't care anymore if i progress, strength training feels amazing.

Bro splits are for fags who have no life and live at the gym

So i should just stick to SS, i mean the only people ive seen talk about it is Jow Forums thats why i dont know if its just a meme or if its really that effective

Im just a fat weak guy that wants to better himsef, i dont care if i look stupid just want to know whats better for me

do SS. Just make sure you actually read the program. So many people do retarded shit like drink GOMAD as if SS says that everyone should be doing this. And then they bitch that SS makes them fat.

hello frnd.
compounds help shape your body and give it a strong base so when you develop you can perform isolations properly because you have well developed strength and form. you don't have to do it forever. Have a goal, reach it. Time flies and you'll enjoy it.
bonus point for your fatass is that ss burns the most calories as a program.

yes to all mostly, I'm confident that I got the form down.

I mainly fail in the 2nd or 3rd set when the fatigue kicks in and I fail to lower/raise the bar in a perfect diagonal from A to B and instead my arms zigzag. So I end up spending energy to return the bar on the proper path instead on using the energy to lift.

It's frustrating because I was supposed to be over these kinds of things in the first month already..

This happens to me when i either have bad grip positioning, like leaning to one side. And when one of the weights isn't put properly, like when i hit the barbell the weight sometimes shifts to the edge. It happens

Yeah, this is one of the issues I personally have with linear progression programs like SS. IMO, if you've achieved a new 5RM for one of your sets, then you're good. The other sets are just extra volume to help stimulate growth. Just add weight the next workout anyway even if you're only able to complete 1-2 of your working sets.

Also, how long are you waiting between sets? I recall seeing studies that show that your strength will be largely recouped after 3 minutes, and almost totally recouped after 5 minutes. Make sure you're giving yourself enough time between your working sets to recover. I know it sucks because it means spending more time in the gym waiting around and dragging things out, but that's recovery for you.

>I mainly fail in the 2nd or 3rd set when the fatigue kicks in
Rest more or lower the weight and do more reps.

Thanks guys
Ill start it tomorrow even if the people i already mentioned give me weird looks

nah i use clamps even in warmup sets.

i rest about 4 mins every set, 5 mins if i'm feeling exhausted.

I think that what's stopping my progress is really my diet, all the form imperfections will repair themselves as i progress with the weights, at least I hope so.

well one is a strength routine and the other is a bodybuilding routine. One allows you to up your numbers faster and the other allows you to look shredded faster. Of course both gets you strong and shredded but at different rates.

Not him, but I think I'm hitting my first reset about a month and a half in. On Saturday I couldn't even budge a deadlift weight that I was able to do for FAHVE on Tuesday. Plus my bar speed on my squats have been pretty bad lately, along with more lower back pain than usual (I have a lingering lower back issue for the last year). I've been doing the 10 pound jumps this whole time, and I think it's outpaced me. 10% back, then go down to 5lbs each time is generally the way to go on the first reset, yeah? My bench has still been steadily increasing, although I think I'm starting to hit the wall on OHP (approaching 1pl8 on OHP)

Yeah, diet can always be a factor as well, obviously. If you're going to make an effort to eat more, just make sure not to go overboard with it. So many people do bulks more than they actually should and just put on a bunch of fat. And then they have to spend even more time cutting that weight, while also getting weaker as a result. So it's better to just lean bulk from the first place. Don't even do the +500 kcal/day stuff, that's a meme and probably only applies to roiders. I'd do a surplus of half that, if that.

Nearing 1plate OHP is good progress during SS. Obviously I'm going to say you should be cautious with your squats and deadlifts if you have a preexisting lower back injury. But yeah, definitely go to 5lb increments and your deload scheme looks good to me.

Slowed bar speed is honestly fine, so long as your form isn't breaking. Be particularly careful though during those final working sets where you're already feeling fatigued. That's where injuries happen.

thanks for the help man

still hesitant on adding too much accessories because they might interfere with the main lifts.
I'll keep going vanilla for a few more months then i'll reconsider. Thanks

My upper body lifts have been noticeably more consistent than my lower body ones, I think. Then again, I intentionally started at a pretty low squat weight my first week.

Here's where I'm at as of Saturday (haven't done the reset yet)

OHP: 95 (Good form, with a slight breakdown on final rep of the day)
Bench: 115 (still good form)
Squat: 215 (form has been breaking down)
DL: 225 (failed)

I've started doing power cleans, but I'm so new at them that I'm not even worried about the weight right now.

One thing I find odd is how close together my squats and deadlifts are. It seems way too similar, to be honest. And with what happened on Saturday, I'm starting to think my squat might actually be stronger than my deadlift, which tells me I must be doing something wrong on my DL. And I think it might come down to my grip strength. I've started using hook, but I have a hard time maintaining the grip during the entire set.

hakuna matata

I remember starting to have grip issues when I started off in the mid-200s. I started doing weighted dead hangs to help with that. But the thing is even if you improve your grip, if your DL rises more and more like it should, you'll eventually get to the point where your grip is still failing you anyway. There's nothing wrong with mixed grip. I use it religiously for my deadlifts and have never had any issues. I just make sure to alternate grip between sets and workouts to keep the muscles balanced, and keep my elbows locked.

If it's not an issue with grip, it could just be that your mechanically better for squats than deadlifts. Most people have a better DL, but this isn't always the case

But whatever you do, just be extra cautious about your back. I took a trip to snap city after getting overzealous with my deadlifting. Got to lmao5plate DL after a year and a half, and shortly after I just got a little reckless on a last rep that I should've have done and I caved on my right side and snapped my shit. (still nailed the set though, for what it's worth). The resulting nerve pain was the worst thing I've ever experienced.

Yeah I've been more and more conscious about my back. I actually tried doing SS early last year, fucked myself up, and sat out a whole year before I felt I was ready to start over. I've made more progress this time than when I got that injury, but it's still something I worry about. Especially during DL's. I actually got myself a pull up bar for home to practice negative chin-ups on (I still can't do a real one, since I'm too heavy), and I'll probably also use it for hangs. The injury only really makes itself known under two conditions: When I finish a heavy set with a breakdown in form, or when I've been sitting for a while. All other physical activity doesn't seem to cause any discomfort.

Definitely impressive that you were doing 5pl8 a year and a half in, even though you ended up hurting yourself. From what I understand, getting to 4 in a year is considered very good.

It all really just depends on what your body is naturally like. Everyone starts at different places and has different rates of progress, but what matters most is persistance and a positive attitude, which you seem to have if you're willing to get back into it and give it another shot even after hurting yourself before. That's admirable.

Plus everything has its plusses and minusses. Yeah, I reached a decent deadlift fairly early, but my squat was (and still is...) fucking garbage. At 495 DL I was still only squatting at or slightly above 315. And meanwhile other people I talked to who were doing/did SS told me they got 315 squat in months and 4plate squat after a year. So it all depends on your body type.

Practicing chin up negatives at home is definitely a good idea. Also try doing core workouts like planks, because those will help protect your back and will carry over to added strength in all your main lifts too.

Yo unrelated question about SS:

If I'm on my last set in a 3x5 and I feel like I can do a couple extra reps is that okay? Obviously you wouldn't want to do it on the first two since you could potentially ruin the later sets but if it's on the last set is there any harm?

Just asking because I've been doing it sometimes and I feel like it helps me gauge how much weight I should add for my next workout. Also seems like if I can do more reps, then I should've picked a heavier weight, but if so then those extra reps should be beneficial because they'd help me get a bit closer to the workout I should have had with the higher weight.

I'm not sure if it's really that much of a benefit. In general you should start to get a 6th sense for how many theoretical reps you still have left in the tank without actually needing to try going to/near failure if you don't need to. If you think it helps you, then it's fine. But if you start feeling weaker and your progress stalling, it could be because you're burning yourself out from the previous workout and aren't getting enough time to recover.

depends, you could be fucking over later exercises if they largely require muscles your using in your current exercise. But ultimately I don’t see a problem with it. could always save your energy for accessory work too

What is the main difference between SS and SL?

youtu.be/vyWBGhwA6do watch this OP, replace sports with "mass training"

this is also why you shouldn't cut and why you shouldn't add accessory exercises.

yes it is okay, but that means you're not quite lifting what you're supposed to.

you pretty much answered your question.

3x5 vs 5x5

Add-on question, shouldn't the 3x5 be done with the maximum weight possible WITH proper form? So is the optimal weight the one where I can do all the necessary reps with good form, and could possibly do more but form would probably break down?

SL is 5x5, SS is 3x5
SL has rows, SS has cleans/chin-ups
SL has you starting with just the bar no exceptions, and SS has you finding a sweet spot for starting weight
SL is a very simple A-B, SS is a little more complicated with what you're doing actually changing as the weeks go by, starting with deadlifting every workout for the first few weeks and eventually only doing it once per week and doing more cleans/chin-ups instead.

This is my personal take on it
>I prefer rows over cleans
>I prefer 3x5 over 5x5
>I think starting with just the bar is fucking retarded and a massive waste of time for most people

1- SS has more material on it; for starters a full book. But also plenty of coaches, articles and so on where SL is just some blog with little content to it.
2- SS has more levels (Phases) to it, where in SL you start with one program and stick with it until you can, figuring shit on your own.
3- SL says you should do Rows for accessory work while SS introduces the Clean, both are supposed to work your deadlift. SS also introduces chinups later on, same idea

That's a tricky question because it all depends on what you consider "proper form" and what's within the acceptable bounds of being good enough. Basically if you're too uptight and autistic about it, you could very well be letting the perfect be the enemy of the good if you refuse to ever add more weight unless everything is 100.00% perfect. You know what I mean?

After a while of lifting you generally just know in your heart where the line is, and you can tell when a lift is solid and when it was sketchy as fuck.

yes, do enough where you know your form is good. I think about it as if I wanted to do 6 reps.

your warmups should be 'good' or 'proper' or 'perfect'
your worksets should be difficult and you should struggle somewhat to keep form but it should still look like roughly the same movement

So is SS the superior one?
I liked SL because i dont know anything about lifting and i thought it simplicity might help me.
(First time trying to get Jow Forums), but if SS is better i could try that

Appreciate the encouragement, for sure. I knew I'd be back eventually, but I wasn't sure when. Meanwhile the book was staring me in the face every time I woke up. I've looked like shit for my whole life, and I'm not gonna let some pain stop me from finally fixing that.

I do think perhaps I might be more build for squats. I think I have a relatively long torso relative to my legs, which would mean I don't have to move as far. Then again, maybe my glutes just activate better? Still figuring that out.

I'm doing the negatives as part of a plan from Scooby about how to train yourself up to do proper pullups, although I lower the amount of sets because I'm doing it along with SS. I actually managed to finally do a proper chinup today for the first time, so that's exciting. For core stuff, I've actually been doing pic related on and off for years, starting from when I was losing weight from being a near 300 pound whale (I'm way down, about 210, but I still could stand to lose a few more), and it has a lot of core work, including a number of more advanced plank forms and timed pushups (3-count, 5-count, 10-count, and 20-counts, which are motherfuckers), along with PT-style work. I need to start getting back to it more regularly to support my lifting. At the very least, there's a 10 minute high intensity core workout I could plug in on rest days very easily.

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Personally I prefer SS, but that's an opinion. I also didn't do TRUE SS because I replaced the cleans with rows because I just wanted to build back strength without learning how to coordinate the clean. But again, that's personal preference.

Sounds like you got all your bases covered. Best of luck acquiring your gains, my dude.

Thanks guys, I think I'm doing everything right, there's just some workouts where I feel like I could've gone a little heavier so that's where my question arose from. Progress is progress though so I'm not in a hurry.

I'd say read about both.
SL is retarded enough to not let you know when you should change to 3x5, but your body will know.
Also Cleans require way more technique than your Rows will ever do so you might want to do SL instead for that reason, if you're not interested on doing Olympic lifts in the future (they help you with your vertical jump and other athletic movements too)
I also like that SS gives you the choice of switching the order you do Benching and OHP, Rippetoe even talks about just doing OHP if you don't have a spotter but how benching allows you to lift more weight than OHP does.

Fuck yeah dude, thanks. Now I just need to sort my diet out. Getting all that protein in is tricky. I need to make more use of my crock pot. Lift-wise, I know I can't let my ego control me, or else I'll start trying to overreach again. I was getting dangerously close, and I realized that over this past week.

Since I'm probably about halfway through SS (going by most people's testimonials) I'm already thinking about where to go next after SS stalls out for real. I'll probably go with The Bridge from Barbell Medicine. Those guys really seem to know their shit, and I'm not afraid of doing something more advanced. Once I finish that up, I might finally move on to more hypertrophy-focused programs. But that's for later.

Anyway, thanks again for letting me bounce some stuff off of ya. I guess I already knew what I was going to do, I just needed to confirm if it's the right thing or not.

I'm the only who deadlifts and does ohp in my gym believe it or not. We don't even have a squat rack i use the Smith machine and for OHP and deadlifts i take the barbell of the declined bench because people rarely use it. You just gotta do what you gotta do. That's why no one at my gym does it without steroids.

sounds like a shitty commercial gym, can't you switch?

In my experience, the issue is never going to be with adding weight during a subsequent workout. The issue is going to be stubbornly refusing to accept that the weight is too much for you to handle and trying to force more reps when you really shouldn't.

You're almost never going to injure yourself on the first rep of a new goal 5RM. It's going to be that last rep, and it's going to be a scenario where you're telling yourself "rep 4 looked like shit and I was wobbling everywhere and struggling... BUT I REALLY WANT TO FINISH THIS SET AND MARK DOWN A WIN ON MY NOTEPAD". That's when you get fucked up.

So don't be afraid to just add weight during the next workout, so long as you have the humility to know when you have to backoff and re-rack the weight halfway through the set.
Because if that happens, you can still progress
>100 lbs x5 workout 1
>105 lbs x5 (but only complete 4 reps) workout 2
>105 lbs x5 (complete all 5) workout 3
See what I mean? This can be better than just staying at 100 lbs over and over and over again in this theoretical example because you're scared to ever increase.

Planet Fatness I assume? damn, that sucks. Smith machine is honestly just a regular old machine like the others that wants to pretend its something its not. I'd honestly recommend finding a real gym or setting up a home gym. It's worth it in the long run

I understand the importance of the 'Big 3', but are they correlated?

I'm trying to get into a routine, but doing 3 instead of 2 is a mental breaking point for me. Would doing DLs+squat OR BP be futile?

Did SS for a while a couple years ago, but fell off the wagons and into the pits of depression. Trying to get back out and into a routine, but can't bring myself to transition from squats to bench for whatever retarded reason.

Woke up this morning and did BP and DLs and felt great. Reckon squats and DL would be better - ideally all 3. Mainly curious as to the correlation of all 3 together.

>ibf you aren't doing the program
I know, but I'm trying to get there. This is better than nothing, right?

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Another question, if i go to the gym alone, should i start with lower weight? I dont want to get crushed and look like more of an idiot

if you notice the exercises are working your full body.
DL work your harmstrings and ass mainly but also your back
Squats work your quads and hamstrings but also your abs.
Bench builds your pecs and triceps
OHP builds your shoulders, upper back and biceps

BP and OHP can replace each other a bit as they target similar areas of growth (this is why you don't BP and OHP on the same day), but you want to do all 4 (they don't take the OHP into account but it really is an important exercise)

That said, you want to work both parts of your front and back with the squat and the DL but you also want to work the upper body with the BP and the OHP for a balanced physique.

They are connected in that regard, that they are the exercises where you can use most of your strenght (compound lifts) and hence, the ones that get you stronger.

for mass you could argue isolating is better, but I think adding strenght works just as well, is just harder.

if you go to the gym alone ask someone to spot you on the bench, that's the only exercise that can get you killed, and obviously work with weight you know you can lift. first do your warmup sets and work up until you get to your working ones.

Well, the only lift with any issue like this is going to be the bench, so I assume you're referring to that. Just do the ROLL OF SHAME (google it) if you fail. It's especially easy when you're going to be at babbyweight anyway.

I work out in a home gym with no spotter. I can 1rm lmao3plate and I use a suicide grip too. Escaping a failed bench press isn't actually that hard.

>This is better than nothing, right?
It is, but I still don't understand why you can't just do the whole workout once you're at the gym. Do you have an aversion to the number 3 or something?

There's a few reasons people call them the big 3:

1)Bench, Squat, and DL are the lifts performed in powerlifting competitions
2)They're barbell compound movements where you can lift the most weight in a big range of motion
3)They're an ok measure for overall strength.

Really, though, it's mostly because of number 1. I personally think the standing overhead press is more important than bench for general strength. In any case, a well-rounded program will have you moving weight in 6 directions: overhead pressing/pulling, horizontal pressing/pulling, and squats/DL.

Its mostly better in the sense that it gets dyels to do compound lifts rather than curls for an hour.

What people don't understand when they talk about SS is that SS is a eating program. There is nothing inherently better about doing 3x5. SS also is very lacking on upper body.

Rippletoe intends for everyone who does SS to eat 4000-6000 calories a day + maybe gomad. You will make significant progress doing any program is you ate as Rippletoe intended. He also has a extremely out of touch understanding of TDEE and bodyfat. He thinks people are much lower BF than they actually are. If you do SS as intended, you will get Overweight/Obese with high BF.

how should i warm up?

I’m definitely considered a noob lifter despite having lifted in the past. I’m gonna start SS on Friday. My question is, as I’m mainly concerned with getting injured, even though I can lift more than the bar on all these exercises, should I start with basically the bar and work up so i get used to the lifts, get stronger and I don’t get injured? Or can I safely start benching 1pl8, DL 100kg, etc etc cause I know I can.

Roger that - I picked up on the 'whole body workout', but couldn't see if maybe they were dependent on each other or heaven knows. There's a whole book that I'm not going to read dedicated on that.

>why you can't just do the whole workout once you're at the gym
It's even worse to admit it's in my basement. I knocked out the bp and dl this morning in about 20 minutes in between getting ready for work.

If I added a third, I'd have to re-rack the weights and reset all the bars, and it'd add an extra 20 minutes, doubling the time.

I know, I know. I used to be in the gym 1hr+ 5x a week, but I've really let shit slip and am in a pretty dark place due to a lot of environmental factors. 20 minutes is doable as I ease back into a routine, but 40+... I can't swing. I used to wake up looking forward to squats lol.

I'm poor and this gym is cheap and i get away with paying only once every few months. I live in a small poor country where everything's overpriced even gym fees. I deal well with everything except the lack of rack for barbells when it comes to ohp. There's a seat and above it is a barbell for behind the neck sitting ohp, i have to put the weights on, put a leg over the seat and push back against my chest to take barbell and walk back to do the normal standing ohp, it's difficult because it gets heavy when you're fatigued, i don't know if i explained that well.

Note: I do 2 sets of lat pull downs after pull ups with average weight and today the machine started making weird noises mid set which would've been alright if the other lat pull down machine didn't collapse last week. Adrenaline filled moment.

>even though Medhi from SL says you have to trust the program as written

But Medhi is a dyel
he looks like shit

Anyone?

Candito's LP is a 4-day upper/lower split program. Maybe you would like that better.

canditotraininghq.com/free-programs

>So i should just stick to SS, i mean the only people ive seen talk about it is Jow Forums thats why i dont know if its just a meme or if its really that effective

lmao you just aswered your question

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Volume but both are ripoffs of Bill Starr 5x5 and Reg Park 5x5.

I’ll suck your dick for a pro response

How many sets of curls do I do on SS? Rip said do 10 reps but I havent seen info on recommended sets.

4x10 heavy BB curls

yes

nigger just dont deadlift

its not essential except to online retards

do greyskull instead and you can add accesories but its not necesary

Do people who complain about a lagging upper body in SL just not even look at the program? That's how it's designed. You theoretically start from the same place, the bar, but instead of squat and deadlift where you put on 15 lbs/week you put on 7.5 lbs/week on the other exercises. It baffles me that this shocks people.

Volume and risk of injury.

Don't do more than you need to, you don't need more than Strong Lifts 3x a week at this stage.

Add in some curls / dips / raises at the end of your workout if you must.

Use GSLP, it only has you squatting 2x week

Thx. Had the revelation I have dumbbells and could use those for bench press. I think we're gonna make it.