SS REKT!!!

>Barbell Medicine (Jordan's company) is evidence based
>SS pushes a one dimensional training system that has very many fallacies and is not evidence based.
Ex: Jordan tried to tell people about a study that proved half squats were better for improving one's vertical jump opposed to full depth squats. Rip basically came at him sideways for trying to tell the evidence based truth and not spout about how lowbar squats are the end all be all. Jordan jumped ship

Tm and 5/3/1 isn't linear progression tho
I thought intermediates where not capable of liner progression?

based stroke poster

Seriously, ripplateau and his apologists love to hide their lack of programming knowledge by shifting all the blame to the lifter and promoting their voluntary hardship crap.

There's nothing magic with 3 sets of fahve. If it works for someone, great. If it doesn't, do more. Or do something different. Or both.

Lifters or coaches who are worth their salt don't shoehorn themselves or their trainees into a program that they don't respond well to.

barbellmedicine.com/openletter/

Alan Thrall immediately followed suit and stopped using the "SSC" crap on his IG. Tom Campitelli, one of the oldest SS coach at that time, followed soon after. Some dude in Australia who held the certification also did the same.

These 3 dudes are now BBM coaches.

Well, nigga is right.
LP doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things.
It's just the selling point of SS.
BIG STRENGTH FAST!!!

Yeah that's nice. You can abuse a new lifters body till they hit the wall and are filled with retarded ideals about fitness and have no idea what to do and are more then likely injured or will be seriously snapped up in the future.

But this does not lay the ground work for life long love of fitness and strength and basic activity overall.

Yep. You nailed it on the head. Blame the trainee instead of the program

Based BBM

I highly doubt any of you have actually read practical programming and completely misunderstand the purpose of starting strength.

For the love of god just read practical programming.

>Evidence based truth
>Exercise science
K E K
E
K

nobody ever reads the book
they just look at the copy-pasted routine that gets thrown around and thats how they understand it

i have the book right here

he tells you to drink a gallon of milk a day if you're skinny

Who said exercise science fucktard? Wanna put some more words in my mouth?

I fucking hate Jow Forums I don't know why I keep coming back.

That's the only thing in the entire book, yep.

>For the love of god just read practical programming.
Have you?

The implementation of SRA in PPST is highly flawed. Just look at the stock 3 day texmex method and how autistically the SRA cycle is implemented there. Quite literally, the volume day is the "stress," the recovery day is self explanatory, and the intensity day is the "adaptation."

Unfortunately, the SRA cycle doesn't translate linearly like that in real life.

And more importantly, the book doesn't tell you to increase weekly volume when 3x5 3 times a week stops working. It actually tells you to do less with the stock texmex having 5x5, 2x5, and 1x5 for the volume day, recovery day, and intensity day, respectively. That's 40 total reps, 8 sets per week. Compare that to SS with 45 total reps, 9 sets.

PPST is garbage.

Tex method is a intermediate program and isn't supposed to have a PR broken on both volume and intensity days every lifting day every week.

The purpose of reducing volume is so you can do heavier weights and continue progressing for as long as possible, until you start a new training cycle.

You are forgetting the entire concept of intensity in the first place is to determine the total amount of stress applied so it can be adequately adapted to.

Unrelated question, but didn't Alan Thrall say something about how if you plateau on heavy lifts, switch to endurance lifts, and once you build the endurance/mass, you'll be able to make strength gains? I'm trying to figure out how to organise my routine, and since everyone claims SS is such a meem, what should a plebeian such as I be doing?

Rip made the mistake of hiring on ambitious 20-something y/o doctors, despite running a program for which dogmatism is one of its main strengths. He probably should have seen this problem coming.
On the other hand, I don't really think Feigenbaum and Baraki offer anything important to the novice lifter who is, after all, Rip's core audience, and the people this simple, dogmatic advice means the most to.

Its more complicated than that, it's more about adding more total volume in the form of accessory lifts so you can maintain strength gains without overloading the system.

He talks about it a little bit in this video.

youtube.com/watch?v=Bmescd9pFI0&t=73s

Jordan and the BBM crew are correct, but Rippetoe and the SS crew are right

Jordan's nuanced approach is correct. Squats 3x5 three times a week won't be the most optimal program for everyone. It literally cannot be, especially if you're an athlete trying to maximize performance in a non-strength sport.

But Rippetoe is right that once you start going down the Barbell Medicine path of trying to nuance everything all the time you're actually doing a disservice to novice trainees because you open the floodgates for them to add their own bullshit or tweak the program in stupid ways because they think they're unique.

If you listen to Jordan and Austin's answers when they're asked about training and routines, they're always like "yeah man do whatever." That's fine if your audience is competitive powerlifters. But you tell that to your average r/fitness citizen and you wind up with them doing dumb bullshit like "I'm doing 5/3/1 but instead of Deadlifts I do 3x8 leg presses and one day out of the week I do parkour instead of my lifts and instead of OHP I do machine lateral raises supersetted with goblet squats"

If I had 100 people and I wanted to get their average strength level as high as possible in three months, I would send them to Camp Rippetoe well before I sent them to Camp Feigenbaum

Attached: hqdefault.jpg (480x360, 15K)

SO WHAT DO I FUCKING DO?

My left ear thoroughly enjoyed this video

Probably do SS until you actually know what your doing or do whatever your real strength coach tells you if you have one of those.

Fucking this. And I don't think even Rippetoe opposes these ideas; when I read SS and Practical Programming for the first time 10 years ago, the gist I got from it was that strength training needs to be individualized, probably sooner rather than later. But if you're young and have no idea what you're doing? Do your fives because it works (more or less) for everyone. I trust that more than I trust Feigenbaum encouraging rank novices to implement RPE.

>isn't supposed to have a PR broken on both volume and INTENSITY days every lifting day every week.
Emphasis mine. This is funny because intensity day is normally a 5RM in stock tm. And the only way to tell if you're progressing on tm is if you're setting 5RM PRs every week. So what you're really saying here is that you're not supposed to make progress on tm.

>The purpose of reducing volume is so you can do heavier weights and continue progressing for as long as possible
Why is there a need to taper volume after doing SS which, let me remind you, is already predicated on MINIMUM EFFECTIVE DOSE? Seriously, this is just plain dumb.

Also, I think the power clean should be fucking mandatory until it is proven beyond doubt that it is not useful for the athlete in question.

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works on my machine bro

Not that guy, but it sounds garbo on my machine that has stereo output

So from what I've gathered, he goes back and forth from 65-75% to 85%, and he'd add in the accessory lifts you were talking about, ie incline bench and whatnot.
Thanks for the help, user.

You are clearly being intentionally obtuse with the first point so I will ignore it.

And who says SS is max effective dose for all time? That's the whole point of switching programs.

When you modify volume on texas method to extend progress the book recommends changing rep ranges as well, which is going to change the overall intensity and can potentially make it much higher. You can plausibly do a 3X3 and very very near true 3RM when its not really possible for a 3x5.

>And who says SS is max effective dose for all time?
Nobody. I actually didn't say that. I'm actually saying the opposite - that SS is already minimum effective dose, and tapering volume coming from minimum effective dose is dumb as shit.

And being able to increase weight while tapering volume isn't called progress. It's called peaking.

Lol
>something should be mandatory because I said so
Provides no proof of it's efficacy for the average person
>prove me wrong with unrealistic extensive research and study!

no i want to put my big fat cock in your mouth you sissy
you should already know fit is only for trolling, if you want to discuss go to some underground forum and if you want to help go talk to any skinny kid in your gym

If I don't do 5 3 1 or lp what do I do?

KYS

No, you know what, fuck you.
1. Only power exercise in the program.
2. Introduction to oly lifting, a fulfilling pursuit on its own.
3. Literally the only lift you will look cool while doing on LP.
PLEASE don't cite me a bunch of articles, just do some barbell rows instead because they're "good enough," fuckface.

>I don't care what you squat at 3 months

...but I do. I'm doing SS because I stopped lifting a couple of years ago, I want to get as much strength back as quickly as possible.

Pretty much this. The biggest appeal of SS is that you can get stronger than every person you meet in daily life in 3-4 months. And then you've got videos where Feigenbaum recommends gaining 1-2 lbs per month for your first year of lifting. Fuck's sake.

1. Null and void
2. Null and void
3. Null and void
No substantial reasons for someone to do them. Novices will problem snap some shit up trying to do them without a coach and will look retarded while doing them. If being coached by a professional, then sure, why not do them. However, that doesn't apply to the overwhelming majority of lifters. So I say, stick to basic easy to learn movements that are less likely to fuck up on form wise. Hell, people have a hard enough time trying to squat and deadlift with proper form on their own.

I'm not seeing anyone post a better alternative to SS than novices

Basic bodyweight training.
You'll get strong, get swole, drop weight, become athletic, and do it without spending a dime and safely.

Do SS, but what's being said is, if you're having to deload after stalling multiple times even though you're doing everything right, then just move on. Don't stay complacent in your training.

>Do SS,
No.
It's fucking trash for stupid weak as fuck kids who're too pussy to go into any form of athletics, autists and adults going through a midlife crisis.

It's a trash program.

Bodyweight training is infinitely more dangerous for your ligaments and way less efficient for building mass and getting strong.

Are you fucking retarded?

Alright what do you recommend user

>Decide to visit barbell medicine website to see what is this all about
>Their novice program is literally squats deadlifts and bench press
SS forever btfo!!1 am I right????

Not to mention they call it novice linear progression too
>hurr linear progression is stoopid
like what the fuck?

I don't even understand their point about the lack of predictive power of what you lift at 3 months.
I've never seen people defend SS on the ground that "what you lift at 3 months is gonna determine your whole lifting career"

They release their own LP?
Can you link it? Can’t do shit at work

Idk he is right about that if it doesnt do it for you or like myself can't squat because knees/shit flexibility then yeah sure do something else but SS besides the muh galon of milk is fine. Nothing wrong with it, and it's also a meme, people know that it's not the only novice program that works.
barbellmedicine.com/quickstart/
Don't bother reading it all if you have lifterd for more than a week, it's basically SS explained for complete beginners

>trusting (((them))) over good ol rippetoe

Chill how are they related to (((them)))

Jordan (((Feigenbaum)))

Thank you, fuck them, gonna listen to Ripp

(((BBM))) sells fart powder and other worthless supplements

Rip may not have the best program in the world but he sells a no BS book that gets people started under a heavy barbell.

can you bother typing a whole sentence to explain yourself instead of that shit?

I'm getting a lot of mixed messages from BBM
Like on one hand they say stuff like "just do what works for you man", yet in the Bridge PDF it says you're gonna go further with a plan of action rather than winging it.

And there's the whole business of criticizing linear progression while advocating it on the site.

He’s not saying LP is bad, retard. He’s saying the answer to every question about LP is usually about how to keep it going, when really if you’re having trouble with LP it’s time to switch to intermediate programming.

To continue, the bulk of BBM’s disagreement with SS is how to continue when LP stalls out, and some minor issues like whether to use RPE for prescriptive programming.

t. tried to “run out LP” for a fucking year, wasted 6 months and started making gains again when I listened to BBM and Andy Baker

Not at all surprised that Jordan eventually split from SS. I remember back when he had the nutrition forum. He was spouting all sorts of unsubstantiated claims based on very questionable research, and he seemed to be more of a salesman/marketing guy. He was also telling people to take a whole bunch of different supplements like BCAAs multiple times a day, HMB and so on. On the other side, Rip's whole philosophy has always been to keep things as simple as possible and avoid complicated bullshit unless absolutely necessary. Also, Jordan's company was growing rapidly.

You're a moron if you think Jordan leaving has anything to do with linear progression. It's about his business and a clash of personalities.

The split was largely because of SSOC launching with BBM online coaching being a separate business, making BBM look “not-Starting Strength”. Which Jordan agreed to, but was also just going into some heavy hospital shift so didn’t realky think about it and regretted it on reflection.

Honestly, there isn’t much beef between the two groups. It’s mostly whipped up by fanboys of both and BBM make fun of them for it, hence “the company that must not be named”.

And, seriously, the (((Feigenbaum))) shit just starts to look dumb when the guy is deadlifting seven fucking plates. That’s a Jew you want to pay attention to.

>What matters is how much you squat in 6, 12 years

No? I don’t want to wait 12 years to look good. This dude is retarded.

Is Austin beck recovered?

he looked like sheeeeeeet last month.

Attached: fit starting strength lol.jpg (1620x1894, 419K)

Okay, then lift for a few months and realize that it's gonna take a long ass time before you look good natty, and give up like 90% of the people on this board...

I don't get it.
I was getting compliments from people who didn't know I was lifting like 3 months in.
Like, no shit it takes years to get to model/bodybuilder standards but you should absolutely get some visible results in the first year.

These guys want people to train because it’s good for you. They are literal doctors. Obviously they are primarily focused on taking-term training, not helping fuckboys impress slags as quickly as possible. That said, if SS doesn’t put on a decent amount of mass in the first few months there is something seriously wrong with you.

>they're always like "yeah man do whatever." That's fine if your audience is competitive powerlifters. But you tell that to your average r/fitness citizen
no its actually the otherway around

you need high IQ to understand jordan and austin, what the're saying is that what you do for training essentially doesnt matter which is correct. Anything can work no matter how suboptimal it seems yet at the same time it also depends on the persons genetics. also it depends on your goals

if you wanna do 3x8 leg press and do parkour on thursday then you should do it. if you want to get a stronger deadlift then just do more deadlifts

Everyone keeps criticizing SS so now I do GreySkull.

*long-term training, the fuck

If they broke off from SS, they why are they recommending the book?

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Did he say you wouldn't? He's implying that lifting is a lifestyle and you will want to continuously make strength gainz. Anyone who takes lifting seriously is going to lift for the rest of their life as far as they can see. That's who's he's speaking too when he says the first 3-6 months of LP don't determine 6-12year strength outcomes.

That one makes sense though. From my experience and observations, nobody goes atg to jump in most sports. It's a game squat at most.

Early results are important because that's what gets you hooked.
Nobody is gonna stay with no results. That's why so many people give up: they get this shitty "30 reps on machines" routine from their gym PT, do it for a couple months, see absolutely zero results and rightfully give up.

The fast progression of SS is a central element in keeping people coming.

Because the break is minor and there is still a lot of mutual respect.

>guy on the left wiggles his foot like a true shitskin
can't watch this shit

They were still with SS when that quickstart guide was published (January 1, 2018). The open letter about leaving SS was written March 12, 2018.

I wouldn't be surprised if they revise that guide soon and omit the blue book, as they're really starting to dissociate hard from anything SS related nowadays.

>The fast progression of SS is a central element in keeping people coming.
this is true but at the same time teaching people to expect linear progress and then having them slam into a brick wall when they become intermediates is not a great way to motivate people to keep lifting

that's why this board is perpetually 99% beginners

>that's why this board is perpetually 99% beginners
I mean people say that but the CBT threads are pretty alive and full of visibly advanced lifters

the CBT threads represent a tiny minority of this board

look at the general level of discourse and 99% of the questions being asked

Not really. I mean you should expect a majority of Jow Forums to be beginners at any time, given the nature of fitness as a hobby, but there are way more than 1% advanced lifters.