Remember anons, free will doesn't exist. None of this is in your control

No, that's stupid and gay. Nothing is truly random and true genuine randomness is impossible to create.

>There is no free will
>but let's just pretend there is. We'll call the LITERAL EXACT OPPOSITE of what people mean when they say "free will" "free will", so we can confuse them into thinking they have the free will they're talking about, because the "little people" can't know the truth or they'll behave badly
>I'll write in a deliberately confusing way to make sure to confuse almost everyone into thinking I mean something other than what I mean. It's for the greater good!

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I wouldn't be surprised if that were true, but I don't think we know enough about reality to be sure.

Either way free will isn't real though.

Building up the human body one atom at a time, explain to me EXACTLY at what point free will becomes possible. At EXACTLY what point the atoms are no longer solely under the control of physical laws and quantum randomness

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is this supposed to make me feel bad?

it makes me feel great, this and hardcore genetic determinism is a burden lifted from my shoulders

Compatibilism has nothing to do with the kind of free will you're thinking of. It's a semantic game.

>By the Church Turing thesis, nothing can be more powerful than a Turing machine.
>Therefore a human being cannot be more powerful than a Turing machine.
>Therefore, people who believe in free will, believe a machine writing 0's and 1's on a tape following instructions is capable of free will.

I honestly don't even know what else to say.

Forgot the comic.

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Semantic illusions. Christianity is full of them.
Surface Christianity
>jews are chosen n sheit
>always be nice and submissive
Semantically untangled Christianity
>jews unironically descend from Satan
>Jesus said to kill all bad people
It's all a fucking mess designed to keep the idiots in line and give the genius try hards warnings and wisdom.

I don't care, I'm gonna do shit anyway

Basically my view

Why do all therapists and psychiatrists not seem to understand this simple fact? Is this not taught in school? They always talk about control and I tell them we are just watching everything play out and control is just an illusion. They always act amazed and just disagree with some retardededness that doesnt even disprove it.

Its true, we are all slaves to circumstance. You can only respond to given stimuli. You could make different choices, but only if circumstances were slightly different. If you were given option A and option B, and didnt learn about option C until after you made a decision, was option C ever really an option? Did you have a choice if you couldnt choose option C, even though it was available?

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OP here, genuinely not trying to make people feel bad. Like you said, it's a weight off the shoulders

I don't think it's taught in school, and it contradicts the worldview they were taught since they were kids senpai.

would that count in court?

Nah it's 100% in your control but you will always make the same choices with your free will.

Faggot

How fucking retarded are you user? If you'd always make the same decision it is not a choice you brainlet white trash ignoramus

It's like how I choose daily not to kill myself. That's still a fucking choice, isn't it? I've made the same fucking choice every day, haven't I?

It's a choice because it is still an active decision made by our brain. I guess it depends on your definition of what a choice is.

The school counselor taught me if I feel angry or sad, breathe deeply and think about being somewhere else you like. I didn't believe it and thought it was bullshit. I mean I daydreamed to get out of boredom but not anger or sadness. I was taught I can't control other people but I can control what goes on in my head.

I tried I years later and it worked. I can now dissociate from almost any society or era I live in. The world can be burning down but I can be happy because I'm thinking about adventures in my head.

But the point is you could NOT have chosen otherwise. Your brain chemistry is not your choice. Your upbringing was not your choice. That fact that you are not actively suicidal (at least not to the point of killing yourself) was made up of factors entirely outside of your control. Where is the choice in that? Where is the freedom in that "free" will?

I make decisions all the time. I get monologues in my head and logically compare and contrast my options. It's a verbal decision making process in my own thoughts and I regularly question myself. It's hard to think free will doesn't exist when this is the way I think.

while you may be true, i'm not going to take your word for it unless you can explain exactly why i am experiencing myself right now.

your current worldview is incompatible with the question of consciousness. this probably means it is wrong. maybe our thoughts are on a rail, but that still doesn't explain why we are conscious. you can't just ignore the question just because it can't really be answered. the question alone still has weight and can nullify worldviews

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The self is an illusion. Why you perceive yourself as a thinker of thoughts is still a mystery, but free will scientifically doesn't exist.

If free will doesn't exist why do I have a completely different world view from most of my peers despite living in the same county and time period? It must be my free will.

You think are making decisions, but the mental dialogue could NOT have gone any differently. There is no "you" in control of the thoughts. You are not the author of your thoughts and desires. It's an illusion, albeit a very convincing one. You are a programmed computer responding to external stimuli. That is how the brain works. There is no freedom. Freedom is impossible.

Well, no. You are different because you have different genes, and different experiences. You are simply the sum of your brain chemistry and past experiences. You are not in control of either of those factors

environment has unpredictable and wild effects on the person you turn out to be and differs widely from person to person

>The self is an illusion
then what am i? am i you? am i everything? am i god?

(Not the person you were just talking to)

I don't even experience the illusion of free will. I feel like my brain evaluates whether I go with Option 1 or Option 2, and if Option 2 seems better, choosing Option 1 seems impossible.

The way you phrase it is interesting. That you "get" monologues in your head. Do you choose what the monologue says, or does it say things without you choosing for it to say those things?

Ill say this once and never again, so listen up.

There is no argument against determinism (the opposite of free will). Nobody has or has ever had any control over their thoughts and actions.

The only argument supporting free will is that we 'feel' like we have it. That's literally it.

This video here explains it quite well.

youtube.com/watch?v=vCGtkDzELAI

I genuinely wish I hadnt been so smart as to realise this though, its gotten me quite down. We're literally robots, robots programmed to believe theyre not robots.

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>then what am i? am i you? am i everything? am i god?
Not sure if this is rhetorical or if you are retarded but I know there are a lot of actual retards on this board so I want to answer these questions just to be safe. The answer is yes to all of them.

Today that's irrelevant. You have an entire internet to research option C. If you choose not to do your research it's still a choice.

Free fuck?
>free form fuck?
7&8 can suck my fucking cock
BUSY WITH COCK HARVEST PREPARATIONS OK?
>inb4 thomas a. dorsey

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I choose it and I research my choices. I'm in control.

No, user. I'm sorry, but you really aren't. You and I both know this.

But you can analyze your experiences in different ways. You can read about anything to put it in the context of something that makes sense. Also I'm not limited to learning from my experience or environment. I can read about the 1200s and learn from that. I can read about any era or country and learn from their experiences.

I can't control success entirely because I can't control other people. But I can control my thoughts and my actions in response.

FUCK YOU KIKE IM ON IT
YOU LIVE A FUCKING PIECE OF BABY SHIT
do us all a favor and FUCK BACK TO FINLAND YOU STUPID COCK MONGREL

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I don't know if I fully agree with the determinism meme. I think it's not like... one path, one exact life. I think there's variance, if that makes sense? Like there are only a certain number of choices I can make in any given scenario but if I truly gave myself time and analysis to think over the choices then in two different universes I can make two different choices, so there's some variance to it. If that makes sense.

So, in other words, if I go out tonight and buy a handle of liquor, that's my fault, because I could've exerted self-control and not done so just as easily.

So you choose what the monologue says. In that case, how could the monologue be a guide for what choices you make? It's just seems like it's something you make up to tell you what to do...a sort of impotent extra step.

>I can control my thoughts

Don't think of a pink elephant. Whatever you do, don't think of an elephant that's pink. You're in control of your thoughts, right? I can't make you think of a pink elephant.

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what they're saying is you have no control of being yourself
no matter what you do the you that you are right now was destined to happen
your life could repeat a 100x over and you'll still be in the exact same spot you are in now
you are destined to be you

If you could've done otherwise, why didn't you?

user, please. Just accept the truth. I really wish i was meme'ing here. You and I both have literally ZERO (0) control over our thoughts and actions.

It boils down to the basic laws of cause and effect. Everything is caused by something, and nothing is caused by nothing.

If I am in control of my thoughts, how do I make sure I'm thinking the right thoughts? I mean how do I evaluate the utility of a thought BEFORE I think it?

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YOUB A B Y

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I think I have control over my actions and thoughts but think the outcome of my life isn't always in my control. What does this make me?

>I think I have control over my actions and thoughts

Did you choose to think that thought, too?

Nice way to get out of taking responsibility for your life.

I don't think direct cause and effect exists. I can always reject my environment and find it stupid or decide to ignore things. Hell I can engage in escapism my entire life.

If you mull it over a bit, and you're honest about it, you're going to admit that no, you can't *always* decide to ignore things.

>quantum randomness
OP confirmed for brainlet

>using a satirical web comic as an argument

It's hard to disprove the possibility that some things at the quantum level may be outside the realm of strict determinism. That still wouldn't give you free will though.

Explain to me this. You are undecided on making a choice between 2 things. You decide to flip a coin. No matter the outcome, whatever side it lands on you will follow. Were you in control then?

Yes through my internal monologue.

Most of the time I can. I can escape into my elaborate fantasy worlds where I'm doing things that aren't possible in the real world. It plays out like a movie in my head and can go on for hours.

>Yes through my internal monologue.

And you decided what that internal monologue would say? If so, I don't see how it does anything. It just seems like an extra step.

You decide, "Internal monologue, tell me I have free will". Then the internal monologue says, "you have free will". Then you say, "I believe I have free will". You could just eliminate the internal monologue step and it wouldn't change the outcome. It seems utterly impotent to actually do anything.

>Most of the time I can. I can escape into my elaborate fantasy worlds where I'm doing things that aren't possible in the real world. It plays out like a movie in my head and can go on for hours.

So you do concede that at least sometimes, you cannot ignore things. Sometimes something is so influential on you that you are powerless to ignore it, and it commands your attention whether you like it or not.

And you concede that a lot of the time you can choose to ignore your environment.

If you bought the liquor, you could've never NOT bought the liquor. Your brain is the way it is.

No. Physical materials like water, dopamine, serotonin, noroepinepherine, salt, etc. and electrical energy would still determine what I did. Those physical materials follow the laws of physics.

Even my "decision" to flip the coin or not was the product of physical and chemical reactions in my brain and nervous system.

I did not in fact concede that, no.

Sounds like an excuse for being lazy to me

If I can't why do I do it regularly in real life? I think "this sucks" so I go into imagination mode?

It did a great job illustrating the point. Dennett's "free will" is about as close to the OPPOSITE of what "free will" supposedly is as you can get.

Yes because after the coin flip you can decide to do it again, do the best of 10, or decide not to decide based on a coin flip.

Actually laziness is also the product of chemical reactions. Get enough dopamine in your motor circuits and laziness becomes impossible; an unachievable dream.

People on stimulant overdoses are inclined to harm themselves because they can't sit still (this can happen even to people with ADHD; the "paradoxical stimulant" effect is a myth, and relates to dosage, set, and setting, not ADHD per se) and they feel compelled to do these things. Dopamine plays a role in this because the dopamine surge induced by these drugs compels movement of the extremities and body-focused repetitive behavior.

Some people have problems like this even if they don't take any drugs because the way their nervous system works is like this. It's a known side effect of bipolar disorder, for example.

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>I think "this sucks" so I go into imagination mode

What makes you choose that thought? Why do you choose to think "this sucks"?

ITT: Liberal Bullshit

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Explain what you mean in more detail.

(not him)

Hypothetically speaking, I could run to the store right now, buy a bunch of alcohol, and get totally trashed. But I don't think that's a real possibility. I don't have the urge to do that at all and it doesn't seem like something I'm inclined to do, at least not now. I don't feel like I'm "choosing of my own free will" not to do this. That is just totally contrary to what I'm experiencing. I have no desire to drink more alcohol at all (I drank some beer earlier, didn't get drunk though).

It just doesn't feel like "free will" at all. It feels like I'm following my script.

But sometimes I make what I like to call "arbitrary decisions," where I do something I don't want to do just so I can like buck that routine feeling.

>
So you're trapped by rational thought?

Then in a sense you're still doing something you want to do. From your description it sounds something like this rough outline:

A: Worth 10 Points

B: Worth 5 points, BUT you get an extra kick from doing the unexpected thing

Seems just like you're still following the path of strongest desire if you choose B. The unusual thing gives you an added kick that outweighs the 5 point deficit from choosing it.

what is consciousness? hmmmmmmmm

But those arbitrary decisions are based on the current state of your brain and its inputs. Given the same brain, state, and inputs you would do the same thing in any given situation.

Because that's fucking retarded user

It's not. It makes a lot of sense actually.

What about when there's a battle between the urges and the intellect? Like if someone wants to drink very badly but intellectually knows they shouldn't so they pour the bottle on the grass instead despite heavy temptation?

If the urge to drink is stronger than their desire not to drink, they'll drink. If their desire not to drink is stronger than the urge to drink, they won't. The one that's stronger itself is the product of chemical reactions occurring in their body.

Here's a challenge to your supposed "free will".

Just choose not to think anything. You have free will, right? So you can choose whether you think or not. Just choose not to think anything at all for five minutes. See how long you last.

An electron behaves the way its wants to behave.
youtube.com/watch?v=DfPeprQ7oGc

Free will probably exist.
You can choose not to respond to stimulus. You can spend hours and hours simply observing your body and mind.
You can also choose to respond to stimulus and spend most of your time indulged with them.
Saying free will doesn't exist because we're a bunch of atoms obeying strict physical laws is ridiculous. You can't prove that. None of theses laws can explain with 100% accuracy the interaction atoms have with each other. So there is room for free will to exist if there is such a thing.

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Then what is free will? Define your terms. Do you mean unpredictability or randomness? Why is that an inherent good?

>millions of people unironically believe this
These are the real NPCs. As much as I hate the NPC meme if you don't think you are in control of reality and your existence you're actually an NPC

No, you're just stupid and lash out by calling anyone with an iq higher than a potato an npc.

Thank you, op, for speaking truth. But most humans are too inverted and fucked up to understand, unwitting servants of Satan. Or maybe even worse, malevolent liars.

Not sure desu
Causes and effects is something we observe on the outside world all the time. It makes us believe everything has a cause. So our inner working are probably being caused by something else too.
Free will is something working outside of causes and effects. If no external force imposed me to act in a certain way, I'll said its then free will.
Obviously, this seems strange. Why act at all if not because some external force is bugging us? But I'd say free will is also at play when using our mind to process a limited amount of information about the external world. It then chooses between the possible actions presented to our mind.
It's good since this allow for infinite diversity. It allows input from something working outside the material world. What's better: a static world with predictable future or a dynamic one with no predictable future?
Hope I make sense.

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Whose to say whatevers beyond our universe isnt deterministic? The only thing that has real free will is the initial cause, God the Father.

If God is omniscient I don't see how He could have free will.