Start learning about IF

that's why nutrition is an actual scientific discipline

GROWTH HORMONE IS known to increase the availability and utility of fats for fuel. It also helps to preserve muscle mass and bone density.9 Growth hormone secretion is difficult to measure accurately because of its intermittent release, but it decreases steadily with age. One of the most potent stimuli to growth hormone secretion is fasting.10 Over a five-day fasting period, growth hormone secretion more than doubled. The net physiologic effect is to maintain muscle and bone tissue mass during the fasting period.

>9. Rudman D et al. Effects of human growth hormone in men over 60 years old. N Engl J Med. 1990 Jul 5; 323(1):1–6.
>10. Ho KY et al. Fasting enhances growth hormone secretion and amplifies the complex rhythms of growth hormone secretion in man. J Clin Invest. 1988 Apr; 81(4):968–75.

not him but I've been lifting since 2012 and CICO has always been accurate for me

>trust me bro, I've been lifting
Studies of alternate daily fasting, for example, show that the concern over muscle loss is largely misplaced.17 Alternate daily fasting over seventy days decreased body weight by 6 percent, but fat mass decreased by 11.4 percent. Lean mass (including muscle and bone) did not change at all. Significant improvements were seen in LDL cholesterol and triglyceride levels. Growth hormone increased to maintain muscle mass. Studies of eating a single meal per day18 found significantly more fat loss, compared to eating three meals per day, despite the same caloric intake. Significantly, no evidence of muscle loss was found.

>17. Bhutani S et al. Improvements in coronary heart disease risk indicators by alternate-day fasting involve adipose tissue modulations. Obesity. 2010 Nov; 18(11):2152–9.
>18. Stote KS et al. A controlled trial of reduced meal frequency without caloric restriction in healthy, normal-weight, middle-aged adults. Am J Clin Nutr. 2007 Apr; 85(4):981–8.

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oh I see, you're part of the tiny proportion of the overall population CICO seems to apply to... or maybe you're actually eating less junk food because cutting down on healthy food instead of cutting down on complete trash is making people feel like shit... which shows as a caloric reduction, but really isn't just that

Drink black coffee (or don't, but coffee helps) no sugar no anything
No calories
When I IF I do black coffee, 5gs of creatine, zinc supplement, magnesium supplement and vitamin D3

oh, you're talking about losing weight? fat fuck haha
even cutting down on healthy food is good for you. caloric restriction increases lifespan for everyone.

>talking about losing weight
no, you know what?
>caloric restriction increases lifespan
yeah, sure buddy

Shows absolutely nothing. Hurr durr growth hormone increases - and then I make up consequences that i never actually tested.

If you fast, you lose muscle mass, period. Wonder why? Your body need sugar and also protein, both of which it CANNOT get from fat.
And if you think your body survives off milligrams of protein it gets from “excess skin” because of MUH autophagy then you are just mentally retarded.

>edited out "fat fuck"
cope

Not him but have you ever done a fast?

I did IF for 3 months and lost 12kg (2.2lbs per week) with very little strength loss.

Sure I lost a little bit of muscle but I doubt cutting ‘normally’ would have allowed for greater muscle retention than IF.

>ignores evidence to repeat blog science
>repeats baseless insult
IQ tests need to be obligatory for posting on this board

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Sorry if it was not clear from my post: I was talking about prolonged fasting (multiple days).

You haven’t provided any. One source demonstrates growth hormone release and then nothing else. The only thing you proved by that is some temporary growth hormone increase, that’s it. You haven’t proved anything regarding muscle mass.

The other source talks about alternate day fasting, which I don’t care about. All your fasting threads on this board are always about prolonged fasting, which is what is retarded.

you know why prolonged fasting is recommended for fatties and IF for relatively lean individuals? go figure why both fat people and others who want to get shredded both use a similar method and frequent the same board
>You haven’t provided any evidence
jfl @ this retard

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>You haven’t proved anything regarding muscle mass.
wrong, read carefully before pulling shit out of your ass you disgusting fraudster

>siegmeyer_of_catarina.jpg

All you breakfast skippers and ketards dont understand the basic principles of endocrinology. Insulin is not an on-off switch. Look up tonic control. Look up feedback loops. EVERY metabolic ward study has shown that it comes down to calories. You cannot create or destroy energy. Insulin is merely the traffic cop and at the end of the day all of the calories will get home, regardless of when you eat or what type of calories you get. CICO IS ALWAYS TRUE

I'm doing 19/5IF (OMAD on rest days) for more than a year and noticed that i needed somehow a bit more calories to sustain the same weight gain ratio compared to regular meal schedule.
It helped hunger management, saved lots of time on eating/meal prep, but nothing else. Still count calories and weight myself/food every day.
Didn't notice any huge improvement in muscle mass gain or "leaner gains". I was able to accumulate as much fat as expected across the past bulk period.
Regarding HGH, Layne Norton says it's not anabolic, in that case, would it matter?

Thank you based study poster

Ive been fasting 12-12 and I haven't lost any weight what am i doing wrong?

>bro your body works like a steam loco
>haha lol that's basic endocrinology, my ass haha
how about you cite sources like the "ketard" did?

information overload causes placebo/nocebo on the less mentally robust posters/lurkers

literally ignore everything in this shitty board concerning diet except
calories
protein/amino acid intake
if eating a given food makes you feel sick, stop eating it, not everyone is the same but there's no need to demonize any given foodgroup if you yourself can consume it
human growth hormone changes in the blood are irrelevant, growth hormone itself isn't even anabolic, insulin is
human growth hormone competes with insulin
nothing wrong with spiking blood sugar in fact it's helpful in physically active people, you can't even avoid it unless you eat nothing but fat which is fucking stupid
fasting is motly a meme but a sure way to lose fat and avoid counting calories or eye measuring your macros, it has no benefit over body composition compared with regular diet protocols
cortisol is only an issue when it's chronically elevated aka in a state of starvation/ketosis/overtraining/lack of sleep/mental stress
insulin is good, ignore any retard that talks shit about insulin
coffee isn't "good", it's literally tightly regulated PED and stimulant in the olympics for a reason, it grants benefits but also fucks up people's health, don't drink coffee it's fucking useless only grants short term improvements in power/speed/strength but has 0 benefit for growth long term.
ketones are irrelevant

Fasting is one element, try getting a healthy diet and eliminating deficiencies first before restricting yourself, fasting is meant for fat loss specifically. It's quite obvious that you shouldn't fast if your metabolism doesn't work right. It does enhance your metabolism, IF you got reserves.

The laws of physics? Nobody has posted anything that contradicts cico

The closest is some retard study that shows a 3% rise in bmr which could be a statistical anomaly. Even if it is real i wouldn't mark myself as a total autist for such a negligible difference.

>leptins
>ghrelin
>thyroid
dude you are just randomly naming shit about health in general. IF is literally dont eat until X time frame. thats it.

that being said you should continue to learn about health and the way to eat shit. maybe swap your salt with iodized salt if you dont eat sushi nigga. reconsider weekend alcoholic binges since its likely they send a prolonged signal to the body that extends insulin resistance for up to FIFTY FOUR HOURS. 2.3g of sodium (RDI) is way too low, you need about twice that.

everything is a lie my nigga

>it has no benefit over body composition compared with regular diet protocols
cite studies for the effectiveness of diet protocols which work based on calorie counting
>ketones are irrelevant
they aren't if you are trying to lose fat, because they are indicating that your body is using your fat deposits for fuel.

>oh I see, you're part of the tiny proportion of the overall population CICO seems to apply to
gr8 b8

>body works based on physics not chemistry
>hehe let me name a study without a source, just ignore everything cited before

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you know any case where fat loss was sustained after a shitty and restrictive diet? "CICO" shills suggest that a healthy diet doesn't matter at all, even though it's proven to be the best option for long-term weight loss. A healthy diet goes beyond just counting macros

Wait, hang on. I do keto OMAD, and my pre-workout is a BCAA supplement as well as post-workout. Should I tighten my window of when I ingest these? Do the supplements fuck up my fasting?

t. placebo/nocebo poster
>cite studies for the effectiveness of diet protocols which work based on calorie counting
youtu.be/WWYdDs9SbqE
watch this whole thing
>they aren't if you are trying to lose fat, because they are indicating that your body is using your fat deposits for fuel.
your body is always using fat for fuel, in fact it's in a constant burning and storage process which is why people have lost fat eating frequently while not being in ketosis at all since before the dawn of bodybuilding.

hey faggot, cico is a high level concept that applies to healthy and unhealthy diets alike. yes, you are correct and i agree unhealthy diets and cico are incompatible because your general metabolism is fucked and cico is unsustainable on 4 mcdoubles a day due to leptin/insulin resistance which will eventually catch up to you. that being said, eating healthy but consuming a caloric surplus wont shed weight you fucking r-tard. cico is god....the 'cico shills' your schizoiding about are idiots

growth hormone doesn't maintain muscle mass you retard, you're literally just making shit up and hoping some of it sticks
what maintains muscle is INSULIN you fucking retard
Here's a study done on daily caloric restriction vs intermittent caloric restriction
both had exact same results for health markers and body composition, the exact fucking same
academic.oup.com/ajcn/article-abstract/108/5/933/5201451?redirectedFrom=fulltext

Some studies (no links at hand now) indicate that BCAAs trigger metabolic response, hence, breaking the fast.
If you believe those, then, drop the BCAAs - i believe they're scam anyway - so only drink water/tea/coffee before your feeding window.

So, would a frequent (but moderate) insulin flow would be better for muscle mass retention (on caloric deficit) or growth (on caloric surplus), considering no diabetes?

BCAA's are indeed a scam, protein is vastly superior, BCAA intake actually can make you resistance to anabolism from lack of exogenous non BCAA's that are essential in the synthesis of muscle protein, which in turn forces your body to leach your blood or your own muscles from the amino acids in demand in order to actually make use of the BCAA's you consume.

Curious, I'll have to try and see. The recommendations I've read is that BCAAs make good supplements for fasts like this, since I intend to cut my fat percentage and build muscle. Maybe that's just wishful thinking. Then again, I work out just before my meal, so if it's true that BCAAs trigger a metabolic response, that means my fasting window is an hour or two less.

>cico is god
no
>eating healthy but consuming a caloric surplus wont shed weight
you're using calories as a standard, I personally wouldn't do that. eating more than your body needs atm (both macro- and micronutrients) will lead to weight gain, not necessarily fat, but also mineral deposits. many of the excess nutrients are just going to be disposed. if your hormone levels are in a great state, then you won't worry about consuming a few extra "calories".
>growth hormone doesn't maintain muscle mass you retard
>what maintains muscle is INSULIN
well, no question that insulin plays a very important role, but try gaining a standard amount of muscle mass as an average guy while being severely deficient in growth hormones

Ok I'm going to need a source on this, I've been doing BCAAs for months now.

firstly most people don't count calories very well outside of clinical studies, secondly ketones are one important indicator for fat loss, indicator meaning it points towards it

yes
this has been studied a lot already, patients that suffer from extreme levels of muscle loss due to lack of physical activity or disease when injected with insulin experience vastly lower rates of muscle loss(some even maintain), without a single change in their diets.
A similar effect is also seen in patients fed mostly carbs and protein, catabolism is greatly inhibited, this is true also in people who are under IVS(as in, in continuous uptake of sugar)
nutrients that spike or raise insulin are anabolic, nutrients that don't are not
insulin is anabolic, growth hormone is not, growth hormone is lowest when insulin is at its highest, yet when insulin is at its highest anabolism seems to be at its peak as well, so human growth hormone is of no concern for regular people

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You can't "beat the system" fasting may help 0.1% more but it could also have adverse effects due to lack of nutrition and also it's not sustainable, you turned into a fat fuck because you were unhealthy every day, not because you went to McDonald's once a month, in that same way you won't be in shape by fasting every so often, change your entire life for the better as it is the only sustainable method. Some of the shit posted here is no better than mom science.

What i do is to have a small meal (a couple hundred kcals, carbs, some protein) as pre workout, hit the gym, then eat the rest of my food in a single meal, usually right after the gym, because i hate lifting fasted.

>eating more than your body needs
right, cico. exactly, glad we agree

>nutrients that spike or raise insulin are anabolic, nutrients that don't are not
>insulin is anabolic, growth hormone is not, growth hormone is lowest when insulin is at its highest, yet when insulin is at its highest anabolism seems to be at its peak
growth hormones are quickly depleted if in an anabolic state

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>didn't read the post

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In conclusion, the "eating some protein (or food in general) every 2h" meme was real after all.

Read the post you retard

human growth hormone levels in the blood vary in such high ammounts that it can't possibly be associated with any sort of skeletal muscle anabolism, I'm talking changes in the thousands of percent in a couple of hours.
Meanwhile insulin is more stable, and yes insulin is the only non steroid hormone that is associated with muscle mass anabolism, growth hormone has no such association and there's also no mechanistic reason for it to cause growth in skeletal muscle tissue, it is only "anabolic" in certain tissues such as tendons but the effect is not significant, growth hormone when injected fails to show superior muscle mass outcomes.

There are now new studies suggesting IF increase type 2 diabetes risks.

This whole retarded method shit is just fucking stupid. Eat healthy and not more than what you need, done.

Well I did, but you didn't.

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Fair enough, I haven’t had any experience of that myself, I was assuming you were talking about IF because of the OP

OP is vastly over complicating things for himself

I'm not saying to eat every 2h at all bro, I realize that a lot of people in this board are fasting zealot retards and thus even if it would be optimal to do so people would still talk shit if I recommended that.

However, eating 3 meals a day seems to be vastly superior to eating only one meal a day, the more evenly distributed throughout the day the better.
Protein preserves and builds muscle directly, carbs mostly preserve muscle from being catabolized for gluconeogenesis, but also indirectly and less strongly promote the building of muscle from the slightly higher levels of insulin which are indeed anabolic, energy derived from carbs is also harder to turn into fat.
Fats are essential in the diet, but after a certain minimum of intake they show no benefit at all for muscle growth, and that minimum is very small.

Food takes time to digest and its nutrients also take hours to assimilate and absorb, so eating every 4-5h seems to be a good way to do things.

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2439518/
spell what IGF-1 actually means
>INSULIN-LIKE GROWTH FACTOR 1 DURR
while growth hormones do not really help building muscle mass at "supraphysiological" levels, they do play a key role when it comes to the maintenance and growth of skeletal muscle mass
well cite them, if you can

>you provided no evidence for prolonged (multiple day) fasting
>yeah I did, check this post with a study about alternate day fasting

What is wrong with you?

> physics doesn't apply to chemistry or the human body
Thermodynamics is covered in gen chem retard

>"CICO" shills suggest that a healthy diet doesn't matter at
This is not what us shills claim at all. Our only point is that changes in body fat are due to caloric balance. All these different diet techniques work by exploiting CICO. There is no metabolic magic.

human growth hormone isn't IGF-1
and insulin and igf-1 both go up with the intake of carbohydrates and proteins, both are anabolic IGFBP3 too.
>while growth hormones do not really help building muscle mass at "supraphysiological" levels, they do play a key role when it comes to the maintenance and growth of skeletal muscle mass
human growth hormone doesn't, which is what I was actually claiming in the post you replied to.
human growth hormone has no effect in muscle mass retention or gain in humans even if injected, whereas insulin and igf1 do, and foods that raise insulin and igf1 are anabolic and protein sparing, foods that don't are not.
igf1 is not elevated during fasting at all, in fact it is only elevated from eating food, particularly protein but also carbs to a lesser extent.
out of all these hormones only human growth hormone is elevated during a fast, and it does not help at all in preserving muscle, in fact human growth hormone is mostly only useful for preserving normal organ function outside of skeletal muscle but also regulate lipid metabolism in general.

read the OP and what he was talking about, you'll see why prolonged fasting wasn't the matter at hand, even tho there's retards promoting long-term fasts to skeletons. it still doesn't matter because it's about getting shredded and the study proved the point.
the body isn't a goddamn steam loco, you stupid shill

Insulin is an obesogenic hormone.

It causes fat storage and prevents fat burning.

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>link it
Apparently not published yet - only a mock excerpt that was held at the European society of endocrinology, just google “intermittent fasting causes diabetes” and you’ll find it.
The study has some considerable caveats to it, such as usage of rats etc etc. But so have many of the studies that speak for IF and probably a billion of studies that speak for whatever the fuck else people “found out” about the human body.
This whole study situation is retarded at this point - you have to agree that you will find studies out there that proove basically anything at this point and then studies that disprove it.
It’s just fucking stupid, can’t even take studies serious anymore desu

>5 d without energy restriction and 2 d with 75% energy deficit,
This isn't fasting, shit for brains.

75% energy deficit means they were eating. It's just another form of calorie restriction.

You are so dishonest. What makes you so dishonest that you would post a study and lie about it? It's not even a fasting study.

You're just blatantly telling lies.

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This study BTFOs all the breakfast skippers claiming metabolic magic in this thread.

“The law of thermodynamics doesn’t apply to me!” the thread.

Instead of pretending that IF has some magical advantage over eating regular meals at a deficit (it doesn’t), why not just admit the real reason you do IF: you have a weak mind. You can’t lose weight by just eating less overall because you will screw up and overeat. Instead you need to get off on denying yourself so you can later gorge on piles of food when the fast is done. IF is just a pseudoscientific fad diet that sanctions binge eating as something especially effective for fat loss when it isn’t and in reality is enabling people with binge eating mindsets to feel legitimate in that mental deficiency.

>intermittent calorie restriction (ICR)
>continuous calorie restriction (CCR)
Neither of these are fasting.

Don't listen to this Jew's lies.

Oh hey I recognize this image. You are the same lying Jew who always posts it when you are lying about insulin.

Is it your full time job to come on Jow Forums and tell lies?

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>human growth hormone isn't IGF-1
IGF-1 is a mediator for the effects of GH
>human growth hormone has no effect in muscle mass retention or gain in humans even if injected
These are supraphysiological levels. Just because an injection doesn't do much to healthy individuals, it still plays a huge role inside the system.
>igf1 is not elevated during fasting at all
wonder why? because muscle mass isn't built from thin air. again, you're trying to fool people into thinking maintaining muscle mass is somehow synonymous with an anabolic state.
>in fact human growth hormone is mostly only useful for preserving normal organ function outside of skeletal muscle
wrong

>This whole study situation is retarded at this point
No you just have to reject blog science, but consider alternative opinions

Either you can't read or you're a liar.

I encourage everyone to visit the link he posted and see for yourself. This study doesn't involve fasting in any way.

Le epic strawman and ad hom is epic xD

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Molecules don't work solely on the basis of thermodynamics, neither does the synthesis of organic matter

I don’t know what you mean by blog science.
The researches of that study and the environment it was presented in is far from unprofessional.

Yeah, OP here, uhm, thanks for clearing things up, somewhat. I suppose.

the ICR included a one meal a day protocol 2 days a week

now here's a study comparing regular caloric daily restriction vs alternate day fasting
again, no benefit
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5042570/
>No adverse effects were attributed to ADF and 93% completed the 8-week ADF protocol. At 8 weeks, ADF achieved a 376 kcal/day greater energy deficit, however there were no significant between-group differences in change in weight (mean±SE; ADF -8.2±0.9 kg, CR -7.1±1.0 kg), body composition, lipids, or Si. After 24 weeks of unsupervised follow-up, there were no significant differences in weight regain, however changes from baseline in % fat mass and lean mass were more favorable in ADF.
>le lying jew
you must be the retard who gets destroyed everytime I post these then
>Is it your full time job to come on Jow Forums and tell lies?
is yours to get asshurt and btfo on every thread that even slightly touches on diet?
>wonder why? because muscle mass isn't built from thin air. again,
which is why fasting is retarded, thanks for agreeing with my actual point dumbass
>you're trying to fool people into thinking maintaining muscle mass is somehow synonymous with an anabolic state.
imagine thinking reducing muscle loss due to inhibition of muscle catabolism induced by starvation is not growth promoting lmao
Muscle protein balance is always changing throughout the day, some periods it's negative in others it's positive, unless you're in very rare situations such as steroid use and excessive caloric intake.

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"Professionals" are often not qualified enough, also they're usually one entrance away from outright lobbyists. Look at independent research and try to understand the human body as a whole instead of relying on simplifying memes.

This was already posted in the thread:

>Studies of alternate daily fasting, for example, show that the concern over muscle loss is largely misplaced.17 Alternate daily fasting over seventy days decreased body weight by 6 percent, but fat mass decreased by 11.4 percent. Lean mass (including muscle and bone) did not change at all. Significant improvements were seen in LDL cholesterol and triglyceride levels. Growth hormone increased to maintain muscle mass.

>17. Bhutani S et al. Improvements in coronary heart disease risk indicators by alternate-day fasting involve adipose tissue modulations. Obesity. 2010 Nov; 18(11):2152–9.

At this point it's really becoming obvious there is some sort of lying shill team trying to prevent people from fasting or doing keto. They just lie, and lie, and lie.

ghrelin

>changes from baseline in % fat mass and lean mass were more favorable in ADF
>again, no benefit

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the 3 lines under nutrient absorption should be ignored.
coffee is trash.
breaking your fast depends on the duration and type of fasting done.
metabolically healthy human won't get blood sugar spikes when eating carbs with their meals.

coffee interrupts the fasting process.
depending on what research you decide to value, if you limit all your drinking and eating into at most a 9 hour window you will still see benefits.
just start your timer when you drink anything that's not water.

>it's really becoming obvious there is some sort of lying shill team trying to prevent people from fasting or doing keto. They just lie, and lie, and lie.
Projection, the post
No one that actually matters does keto, or fasts, only retarded mentally ill brainlets that are OBSESSED with their little shit niche fad diet memes get stuck and stagnate and make 0 progress and have nothing to show for.
Powerlifters, strongman, sprinters, marathon runners, climbers, weightlifters, corssfitters, competitive bodybuilders don't fast and don't do keto, if you don't have any fitness related goals then fine go right ahead, but this board is fitness related as such any fasting/keto retard dweeb posting their insane retardation gets bashed in the lockers.

medication treats symptoms, try curing the issue.

>imagine thinking reducing muscle loss due to inhibition of muscle catabolism induced by starvation is not growth promoting
you're just throwing terms around at this point. fasting isn't starvation, starvation happens if your body has no adequate reserves for emergency situations. you're also equating maintenance levels with catabolism

Dude thats basically normal eating lmao

>No one that actually matters does keto, or fasts
wew lad

How so? Explain how a study that compares "intermittent calorie restriction (ICR)" with "continuous calorie restriction (CCR)" has anything to do with intermittent fasting (IF).

PROTIP: It doesn't.

Mark Bell advocates Keto and IF, and he was a bloatlord powerlifter.

Why did you lie about the study you linked?

You aren't an honest debater. You aren't here for an honest discussion.

You are a liar. You are trying to trick people by telling lies.

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>percentage from baseline
I get it, you are gonna just pretend to be retarded now right?
check the actual data provided in the study retard, there is no significant difference in fat mass loss but the fasting group lost MORE muscle.

Now you're just changing the subject.

You lied about the effects of fasting even though evidence proving you are a liar was already posted.