How much does muscle help with a competitive fight?
I've heard BJJ guys talk about that someone shouldn't actually lift weight, some kickboxers too. They were all small af though, but are they right?
Pic Related is a 6'7" (2m) and 250-275 lbs (125kg) fighter
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No, that is something you run from.
Muscle is never really a bad thing. I cannot remember a time where someone was like damn, these muscles are big and getting in the way.
Sharkies looking good
my old fencing coach told me not to lift and stick with calisthenics
but the only muscles that matter for a fencer are legs and forearms.
i dont need to this guy will die soon he looks like a sour grape
Frank Mir when he was still a heavy weight contender. Put on a bunch of muscle but found it was getting in the way of his fighting ability.
Jon Jones had the same problem
Quite a lot. If you have no experience you at least can lift and drop opponent.
This is Jow Forums you can't just say BJJ without summoning the bjj squad
Fighter/lifter here 155lbs. It's a balance, you have to lift properly without the idea of gaining a huge amount of bulk. Also you have to stretch as well (If you lift properly you'll get flexibility benefits as well). If you find the balance, then it absolutely helps and you should.
>Muscle is never really a bad thing.
Strong men literally tell you to not work your biceps unless you are critically weak.
Guys who compete will tell you not to put on too much weight because you will be fighting in a higher weight class with people who are much taller and still really fit, and your extra muscle does not compare with their extra size. Its basically the curse of the manlet.
Ok, so kind of like a point of diminished and then negative returns with how much muscle is good for fighting- relative to ones skeleton size?
In fair competition with weight classes? Yes.
Hit him in the head with a brick. Honor in a street fight will get you killed.
>both on roids
you do not need large muscles to fight. Look at the Diaz brothers
Mariusz Pudzianowski was a polish strongman who turned MMA fighter and he lost some muscle to become a better fighter. Francis Ngannou also shed some muscle after he gassed out in his fight against Miocic. Tyson Fury famously made fun of Anthony Joshua by calling him a 'weight lifter'.
At a certain point more muscle simply isn't worth the trade offs (reduces your stamina, can make you slower and takes away time for training and recovery that you could spend training martial arts).
>Look at the Diaz brothers
Different weight classes, peabrain. If they were to gain muscle mass they would have to move up into heavier weight classes and fight stronger or taller dudes. They prefer to be skinnier but also taller than most of their opponents. Guys like DC or Latifi go for the short but strong build instead.
In weaponless combat there are weightclasses. In boxing there are weightclasses in 10-15 pounds steps. That's how much of a difference bodymass and size makes
Many fighters in the UFC are even complaining that the weight gap between lightweight and welterweight is too big. And that's 'just' 15lbs. A few pounds difference in weight can decide a fight if both fighters are similar in skill.
Are you a fucking brainlet or illiterate?The thread is about muscle with relation to fighting ability. Not specific weight classes. Most men are not 240 juiced to gills monster like frank or brock. Most men are 170-190. You do not need to have a large amount of muscle mass to be a good fighter.
Next time pay attention to the thread topic shit for brains.
>You do not need to have a large amount of muscle mass to be a good fighter.
True. But a good fighter usually loses to a good fighter who is bigger. That's the entire reason why weight classes exist in the first place. Weight makes such a big difference that even 10lbs can decide the outcome of the fight.
If you fight against an untrained opponent weight is not as big of a factor though.
Your wut, nigga!?
>But a good fighter usually loses to a good fighter who is bigger.
Not always the case. Recently in the ufc that with the DC vs Stipe and the Dillashaw vs Cejudo fights. Skill and talent can overcome muscle any day but that is not to say someone looking to complete shouldn’t workout, that is just saying there is more to a combat sports than strength alone. You can see that in mma matches and amateur wrestling matches.
>If you fight against an untrained opponent weight is not as big of a factor though.
This unless you’re 4’11 vs 6’7 Goliath weight usually is not a huge factor
>Not always the case. Recently in the ufc that with the DC vs Stipe and the Dillashaw vs Cejudo fights
Not to be a smartass or anything, but DC was actually heavier than Miocic in their fight and Dillashaw and Cejudo weighed in at the same weight.
DC vs Lewis or Miocic vs Ngannou would have been better examples. I agree with the rest though.
>Skill and talent can overcome muscle any day
That only happens if the bigger, stronger guy doesnt know shit about fighting. 10lbs of pure muscle makes a huge difference if the two guys are of similar skill levels.
Ive been training Judo on and off for 4 years. And the bigger, stronger dudes dont need to perform the techniques perfectly but their throws are still devastating. While the skinny dudes must apply the perfect leverage to throw, and still they struggle against heavier dudes.
The problem with MMA is that the rules and the settings favor the guys with better agility and stamina and the big guys cannot last long. But in a 'real fight' on the street, which lasts for only a minute, the bigger guys have all the advantages.
If we are talkin no weight classes i dont think muscles could ever be a bad thing
>Could you fight him?
Yes, I could. "Could you beat him?" is a better question and the answer is no.
bjj competitor here
muscle matters and helps, rolling with guys lighter than you is significantly easier than guys the same size or bigger even with relative skill level factored in.
you should be lifting and doing martial arts as your cardio, anything else is low iq and you should kill yourself
>Shouldn't lift weight.
Martial artists think that there's no way to lift without it making you slow. They are incorrect.
Former powerlifter Chad Wesley Smith is tearing it up in BJJ now. Mans does not lift like he did but still possess considersble mass
Conclusion: So if you need to kick the ass of some guy, does more muscle HELPS and more weight HELPS and bigger is better, always. But for competitive fighting, weight classes exist and you want to be as lightweight as you can without sacrificing too much strength, and even some fat helps too (it's mighty powerful armor)
>155
We're talking about men here, not the annual dwarven alliance fight between the Longbeards and Iron-Born
BJJ + Muay thai guy here.
When I first started BJJ I got destroyed by smaller weak non lifters because if you dont know what you're doing, technique and leverages will choke you out or submit you.
However now that I have some skill (not a lot) I can survive a lot better against super heavy guys because I can better resist their weight and move them a bit. This is all thanks to strength.
In striking, if you're heavy, you cant be out wrestled as easily in the clinch.
However, again, if you dont know how to spar against muay thai guys of any size, you will get leg kicked while you still figure out your jab that the guy just dodges. Leg kicks are brutal.
There is a lot of broscience leftover from the martial arts community's olden days where there was no knowledge of athletic development. This is changing with MMA's increasing popularity. Any fighter can benefit from gaining strength, As long as you don't exceed your frame and bulk so hard you have to kill yourself to stay at your usual weight class, any fighter can benefit from gaining size. Being strong is never a disadvantage, that comes when you trade time spent working flexibility, cardio, or technique for more time lifting. You need to be an athlete, not a bloatlord.
Or, you can go to heavyweight and be a bloatlord anyway. That division's so shit that a couple lucky knockouts will land you in the top 15 no problem.
Bjj is fucking gay doe. Fondling other guys feet and balls, starting the fight on cowgirl position. It's just something that some closet gays that made up to touch more men
pick related is a bulgarian mma/k1 figher "любo чyкa" / Lyubo "the hammer"
I used to go boxing in 2013/2014 in the same gym as him, the dude has to literaly go sideways through doorways.
t. Fat
I'm 5'9, 220lbs 35% bf and I could take him easy.
Mma is tested, strongman isnt
Weight classes are a very, very new thing in combat sports.
They existed for millenia without any weight classes.
So, get an education, moron American.
>That only happens if the bigger, stronger guy doesnt know shit about fighting. 10lbs of pure muscle makes a huge difference if the two guys are of similar skill levels.
No.
>Ive been training Judo on and off for 4 years.
Lol.
>While the skinny dudes must apply the perfect leverage to throw, and still they struggle against heavier dudes.
No.
>The problem with MMA is that the rules and the settings favor the guys with better agility and stamina and the big guys cannot last long. But in a 'real fight' on the street, which lasts for only a minute, the bigger guys have all the advantages.
Hahaha, oh wow.
t. big guy
Technique >>>> Size
In Judo, most ground fights are won by the Judoka with more muscles. Strength is a huge factor there.
In judo yes, not in BJJ usually it's those that weigh around 185 that win, not the ones at 250 plus. Flexibility, and understanding of leverage is a huge factor.
Yeah since BJJ was literally made for weak fags.
>weak fags
>meanwhile guys twice the size gets beaten up
>Hélio came up with BJJ because he got his ass handed in Judo
>"Yeah but these small dudes know the superior art of stalling"
Yeah, ok. If you're 300+ lbs and lean like Mariusz you probably have too much muscle. That's not a problem anyone on this board is going to run into.
Don't listen to the shills, muscle helps 99% of the time in a competitive martial arts fight. This is why steroids are so common the BJJ community. Just look at Gordon Ryan, he's one of the best grapplers today and he roided up hard to get over 200lbs.
There are rare exceptions to the rule like Marcelo Garcia, but to be that good you have to make grappling your life for years.
Obviously muscle helps with fighting look at any top martial artist from different combat sports, they are all in shape and have decent musculature. I think the whole lifting is bad for combat sports is bullshit most top boxers and MMA fighters lift weights nowadays.
youtube.com
this is a highlight clip between a fighter with an extra 100lb+ of unnatural muscle, versus a strong top-tier bjj practitioner
as you can see the sheer muscle can create some extremely fucking strange complications, including the slam which could have killed many people, in the end he gasses out but only due to crazy crazy crazy expertise
Muscle matters in the right places. It's true that weight moves weight but you can be handily outclasses if you don't know what you're doing. The upsides of being big in BJJ is that it's super easy to get into control positions because the weight you pile on someone will be brutal, no one wants 250lbs on a knee on belly position and having huge bones and limbs will make it difficult for the enemy to control you, a 120lb girl won't be able to even pull closed guard on 260lb big nigga, she'll have to do some weird half guard thing or x-guard/DLR if he's standing. Being too big also lends you to lose stamina real fast, another thing people overlook is that too much muscle fucks up flexibility so assuming you really mess up and get into a shit position where you don't have leverage to use your big muscles it's easier for you to get subbed and harder for you to escape than a lanky flexible guy. A lot of chokes rely on reducing escape room so being shorter/lighter sometimes is advantageous. That being said, if two guys with high level BJJ experience roll and one of them is larger, the bigger guy will definitely win, Kimura v. Gracie is a prime example, Helio definitely is a better BJJ practitioner but Kimura knows enough about BJJ/Judo to control him at 10kg heavier.
In striking, throwing, weight is a much bigger difference.
Wouldn't fight him, he looks extremely unintelligent which makes him even more dangerous
>Implying your old fencing coach knew anything about strength and conditioning
Sport coaches don't know jack shit about physical training, especially meme tier ones like fencing that don't rely on their athletes being big af. Power and endurance are essential for fencing, any decent squat program is going to improve power output far better than calisthenics and make you lunge faster. I'm not saying do SS+GOMAD but do squats, front squats, box jumps. Not to mention a balanced full body s+c program is going to help stave off the chronic knee injuries endemic to fencing.
>T. Reformed fencer
If you're 5'10" or under it's probably not a good idea to be packing 200+ lbs and be fighting in a weight class filled with people who have massive reach advantages over you
Obviously there are exceptions(Fedor, Tyson etc) but those are fringe cases where the shorter fighter enjoyed a comfortable speed advantage over the rest of the field
These posts are all true. No natty lifter will ever get "too big" for martial arts. Lifting almost never hurts your chances. Most good fighters lift to some degree. Being bigger and stronger is an advantage, and it takes more skill to negate it. Between two people with equal skill, the bigger guy has a better chance. Lifting increases speed and prevents injuries.
Why is natty lifting so depressing
Have you ever considered killing yourself?
You really should, comments like these really highlight the waste of space you are on this planet.