Who else fell for the self-taught programmer meme?

>yet
You're far too kind on him.

I mean I have absolutely no problem finding work with my projects being self-taught even if I show code nobody else has ever used

I meant to expand on the nature of the projects you undertook, were they personal or were they of use and service to others, that kind of stuff.

Funnily enough, I had a degree and was REJECTED by one of those shitty companies.

If you're mediocre at programming, you may as well just give up. Unless you're somehow shitty at programming but fantastic at academia.

Get the degree. Get experience. Make a portfolio. But if your GPA isn't the most stellar goddamn thing in the universe, employers will throw you in the fucking trash anyway.

Take it from me. I had 2 years of experience, had worked in DoD, had some fucking amazing projects on github, and had a pretty fucking impressive resume overall. I didn't list my GPA.

> Sit down for interview
> user, what's your GPA. You didn't list it and that's a red flag.
> Well sir, it's [value not 3.5+]. But I didn't think it mattered. As you can see, I have great experience in the field. I even worked with [top 10 defense contractor].
> People lie on their resumes, user.
> MFW accused of being a fraud because you either have a 3.5+ GPA or you're a worthless monkey.

This guy has it right. Self-taught is good if you can entrepreneur the fuck out of it, or if you can finagle your way into being a contractor. Otherwise, you're wasting your fucking life.

Bless my white male status and some unearthly fucking luck that I actually found employment. I fuckin' make 80k a year doing joint contract work for the US military.

video games and video game engines, often unreleased in varying stages of completion

>If you're mediocre at programming, you may as well just give up.
Millions of Indians would disagree with you sir

> Unless you're [...] fantastic at academia.

Ain't ever met an Indian who wasn't fucking ridiculous at getting good grades.

Nice! Video games were always kind of a no no for me, for all the architecting and the problem solving that I'd put forth, my art would make the whole thing look like one of them potatoes that don't make it to shelves of wall-mart because, well, it looks too skewed it wouldn't appeal to anyone.
Keep up the good work user.

I've never met an indian who got good grades, mostly they're just in the middle with white people while chinese people are at the top

You don't have to have good art, people assess your programming skill if you're a programmer

Like 10 years ago if you knew basic js you could a 60k+ starting salary without any ed. or exp. Times have changed and market has been flooded. You can still make it without a formal education, but only if you are exceptional.

>I am a super duper good programmer because I have been programming for a year and made a bunch of crappy half-built video game engines that look exactly like the 500,000 other video game engines on github by hobbyists
Look, you aren't meritorious of a job yet. CS programs are 4 years of formal training and general studies. And even THEY have to demonstrate projects, studies, and interests that are outside of the scope of their degree. You just haven't earned it yet, baby. Do contract work, learn databases, make more complete and more useful projects.

Weird.

I roomed with an Indian who was fuckin' dual-wielding the BS and MS program.

In a lot of my classes, the Indian ones were on the top. Though maybe some of 'em were Paki or Iraqi or something. My white-ass can't differentiate middle eastern folks.

>My white-ass can't differentiate middle eastern folks.
indians are generally browner and they have a distinctive accent
and it's not in the middle east

I am not OP, I don't start project to buff up my resume, I am well beyond that now. I enjoy taking my projects to completion, and the ones that I don't finish satisfactorily leave a bad taste in my mouth, a game with meh art sits at the epitome of incomplete/unsatisfactory projects.

Put everything in perspective and things'll start making sense. There is mad competition in shitty countries to get a shot a better education and life over all, so the guys that make it over to wherever you are are damn good at their shit.

The East is big. It's middle fuckin' enough.
Duly noted on the skin tone though.

posts like this make me happy

here I was thinking that programming is so easy anyone can do it and by 2030 we're going to be overrun with pajeets and the market salary would drastically drop, but no, normalfags cant, or dont care to, learn basic computer science fundamentals purely from self interest and greed. my future job is safe and sound

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I've always held my migrant peers in high esteem. I'm glad they bust their ass and get good grades.

But I have had my fair enough share of Indian and middle-eastern coworkers who uh... I feel like maybe their academic prowess wasn't quite reflective of their capabilities.

But also, it's not like I get mad about it. Like, I don't go ranting over fucking dare they have this job when they're not peak performance. Fuck, most of everybody in every job sector is an incompetent fuckwit to some degree. Me included. Richard Stallman notwithstanding because the ninjas are holding swords to my throat.

Herro my ferrow rite man, here's a real middle eastern for ya

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Until you get replaced by AI.

That will never happen.

The key to building an artificial intelligence is to be an intelligence yourself first. Therefore, humanity will never build AI.

At best, we'll build neural networks that copy paste code from Stack Overflow and then bitch on reddit when the compiler errors.

> Sit down for interview
> user, what's your GPA. You didn't list it and that's a red flag.
> Well sir, it's [value not 3.5+]. But I didn't think it mattered. As you can see, I have great experience in the field. I even worked with [top 10 defense contractor].
> People lie on their resumes, user.
> MFW accused of being a fraud because you either have a 3.5+ GPA or you're a worthless monkey.

EXPLAIN right now!
What the heck is this? It sounds like a Larp?!?!?!?!

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>sit down for interview
>user, you have a gap in your employment history that's year's long
>that's a huge red flag
>what were you doing this whole time?

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Trade has always seemed to me the most lucrative of all fields. A company would hire researchers, pour mad dough into R&D, engineer the result into something useful and usable by the end customer, put together a production chain, all of that and it will still need someone to sell their product, someone who can find markets. That someone will cash on shit he probably can't fathom the very existence of.
Basically the real money is always where the Jews are. Though I'd shy away from banking since I am convinced the financial institutions of today are used to impoverish and steal the wealth of nations in favor of whoever owns and manages them (Think the ruble free fall in the late 90s).

Feel bad for people who are in debt from student loans then work 9-5 jobs as a web developer doing contract work for a government agency just wasting their potential talent in exchange for what, $70,000 a year sitting in meetings a vast majority of the time than actual programming.

Statisticians make the best programmers, prove me wrong.

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What jobs can I apply to with an associates in compsci?

>Statisticians make the best programmers, prove me wrong.
Programmers make the best programmers

I keep thinking every eurasian astolfo cosplayer (male) is the same person as the guy in melonpan's syka blyat video.

They make the worst programmers by far, their programs, when they run at all, are so chock-full of bugs that the only thing preventing you from fixing them is how unreadable and fragile it is, to the point the only option is to rewrite everything from scratch.

>what were you doing this whole time?
You were looking for a job.

>self taught
>uni 1st semester
>95% score so far
>everyone else is around 30%, barely above the minimum required
You are the meme, not self taught programming

>who are in debt from student loans
I only had about the equivalent of $8k USD in student loans when I finished my degree.
I also work remotely from home, so there are barely any meetings.

Explain what?

I applied for an entry level position at a company my friend worked at. Figured if they'd employ that stoner fuck (same general GPA, less experience), they'd employ me for sure.

I sat down in front of the interviewer and the first thing spoken was asking me what my GPA was since it wasn't listed, and that not putting your GPA on your resume is a "red flag".

I told them my GPA. I explained that I did not list my GPA on my resume, because I had two years of experience in the industry which I considered better reflective of me than my less-than-stellar GPA. I pointed out that half of said experience was with one of the top 10 defense contractors (think Boeing and Lockheed) where I worked on some serious shit.

The interviewer then proceeded to tell me that people lie on their resumes. The subtext was obvious.

It didn't matter what I had done or what I could do. It didn't matter if I could demonstrate my capabilities. I didn't have a high GPA and that meant I was obviously incompetent and a fraud.

Proof to point, I was not given anything resembling a proper technical interview. And I pretty much came home to an immediate rejection email.

But it's their loss, I guess. I'm not a fraud. My GPA doesn't fucking reflect my programming ability (jesus christ, 90% of my degree was regurgitating memorized trivia and formulae on a piece of fucking paper, less so actual programming projects). And I'm currently making 80k as a full stack dev in DoD.

>Statisticians make the best programmers, prove me wrong
They do have the best tools at there disposal to envision and make sense of tons of data which is what programmers work with often, but `best programmers' is a bit of a stretch. If we're talking shitting out code then who cares, but if we speak of putting together a robust system impervious to change and just building overall good software, well let's just say that they're not that well equipped for that end. Physicists however have always puzzled me as they'd come into a project greenhorned and all wet behind the ears asking the most obvious of questions only to put together some shit that a small team was struggling building before only a few months later, we have to have some of the training that those guys go through in our field.

i worked with self-taught (((programmer))) before, now I will NEVER hire any.

Self taught here, never had a problem getting work, full time or contract. Mind you, I've been in this nigger field since 2000.

I don't remember this episode

Mmm... I can feel this.

> "There's a one year gap since your last employment. That's a red flag. What were you doing?"

It's called finishing my senior year, you dumbass.

> "There's a 1.5 year gap since your last employment. That's a really big red flag. What's up with that?"

I was a full-time student.

> "Yes, but that doesn't explain the last half a year. You graduated in May."

Ah yes, I graduated and then put on my job helmet and climbed into the job cannon and fired myself immediately into my first job.

WHAT DO YOU THINK I'VE BEEN DOING SINCE I GRADUATED?!

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I made 3x that my first year out of college.

yandex is your friend
trace.moe/?url=https://im0-tub-com.yandex.net/i?id=c24b8a3977cdcf4482cb75f48e7b0c06

be self-employed. create a startup if you have an idea.

Thanks. I thought GPA was a meme?
If you worked for a contractor how didn't they respect that?

It sounds like they get gibs for hiring students and Pajeets, you might just cost them a real salary.

How did you get a job after Uni? And is programming for people close to 100 IQ (96), or sub 100 need not apply?

Please respond to my question

Meme? GPA = Grade Point Average.

It's basically an approximation of how well you did in school. It's really big dumb arbitrary math.

Basically, every class can get a grade:

F < D < C < B < A

Each grade is worth some number of "Grade Points"

A = 4.0
B = 3.0
C = 2.0
D = 1.0
F = 0.0

Each class is also worth some number of "credit hours" representing complexity. For example, Calculus is 3 credit hours, whereas some Intro to Fuck Whatever might be 1 credit hour.

Overall grade points for a class are calculated by doing:

(Grade Points for Grade) x (Credit Hours for Class)

So if you take Calculus and get a B in it, your grade points for that class are:

3.0 * 3 = 9.0 grade points

GPA is calculated by adding up all the grade points for all the classes you took, and dividing by the total number of credit hours for the semester.

So, let's say you took Calculus (3 CH) and got a B and Intro To Unix (2 CH) and got an A:

(3 * 3.0) + (2 * 4.0) / (3 + 2) = 3.4

Your overall GPA for the semester is a 3.4

Your overall GPA for all of college is basically the same, just calculated by doing this for all the classes you ever took ever.

Also, some universities use a slightly different grade point scale and have grades like "F < D- < D < D+ < C- [etc]" which makes the math even more dumb and arbitrary.

Do you recommend programming if you have a 96 IQ?

suace? looks like from a video

call me in 2285, when an AI can finally reliably cut my hair or unclog my toilet

anyone who thinks AI is going to be doing anything that requires even a modicum of creativity or abstract thought is a brainlet

I don't consider IQ to be a meaningful value. It's a poor attempt at trying to quantify human capability numerically.

It might be true that person who scored very high on an IQ test might be a genius. It's probably true that a person who scored very low on an IQ test might be mentally challenged.

But I don't think IQ value demonstrates a person's capabilities 100% of the time.

I.e., I don't think you saying you have a 96 IQ necessarily objectively says ANYTHING about you.

The only way to find out if programming is for you is to try it. If you struggle with the basics, it's probably not for you. If you take a shining to the basics of programming like a moth to a flame, then you may as well see how far you can go with it.

Once you know the basics, you're good. If you struggle with upper level material, that's just par for the course. That shit is hard.

this is an american thing btw, only burgers are this pathetically servile that not working for a year is seen as a bad thing. of course you should be able to justify yourself with more than "I was shitposting on Jow Forums", but the lack of employment itself doesn't matter.

>what were you doing this whole time?
Nailing your daughter you HR bitch

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Student loans arent so bad if you make enough money to keep interest from accumulating

It's not even worth it for me to pay more than the minimum on my loans because the interest rate is so miniscule that I get more value from putting my money in an ira

>tfw have 5 year gap
>tfw it's only getting bigger
I'm doomed.

Beginner here. I get the impression that people actually fit for programming don't bother with such questions. They just start coding stuff and see if the enjoy and are good at it (they solve problems posed by serious tutorials without much difficulty and their mini projects actually work).
I've seen people on the internet suggesting you should be at least IQ 120 to be average. Fuck them. I'm 115-120, but I'm pretty confident in my ability to build quality stuff, even if I'm not as productive as others (speed-wise).

so IQ doesn't matter? Just hard work and persistence? (if you actually enjoy programming)

IQ is just how much one can remember at once, like Surgeons aren't "average" intelligence for example.
It's like there's a certain kind of IQ mixed with Autism that makes software geniuses

All you need to do is try programming and see how it feels
IQ is just a number

>IQ is just how much one can remember at once
that's not what IQ is at all

>know a bit of programming
>parents tell me to find a job doing
>don't have any kind of degree
>they tell me to look for a janitorial position at the place I want to work
>say I can just learn what they're doing while I work there and teach myself after work

they basically think that as long as I can get my foot in the door in any kind of position, I can work myself up to a programming position. I'm skeptical to say the least, they are boomers after all

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

lol

Depends how brown you are. If you're huwhite or asian, you've got a mountain to climb. White Jewish is smooth sailing

>tl:dr be the affirmative action hire

yeah, I pretty much told them that's not how it works anymore.

They're also the kind of people that tell me if I want that job at Home Depot I need to stop by, quite literally every other day and bug the shit out of the Manager.

If your response to that wasn't "just ask them and they will confirm" means you're lying.

In real life, even if you were, say, a software engineer, you couldn't change to e.g. frontend engineer because they're usually considered to be "different tracks" and you'd have to take an interview from scratch just like anyone else coming from outside. Needless to say, you'd always fail because you don't have handson frontend experience, because you're not allowed to get it while you work there.

I have 135 and I struggle with shit like compilers, but otherwise I'm fine. Mind you I dropped out because at the time I only cared about programming and my math was a steady F.

>In real life, even if you were, say, a software engineer, you couldn't change to e.g. frontend engineer
unless you're doing art it's the same fucking shit

I have 135 and I've easily written compilers with no reference material

Revisit your compiler course user, it has so many use cases it would be pitiful to miss on opportunities to use it. It is fun too.

I didn't say it doesn't matter. IQ is a measure of some types of cognitive abilities. A minimum level of these abilities is required to program effectively I think, but provided you have the minimum, your success is not determined by IQ-related abilities only. Additionally, I'm sure such minimum of IQ-related abilities vary from one field to another (machine learning, data science, web development, etc.).
Don't think I'm an authority here though. These are just impressions from a guy who started studying recently.

Know any good online books/resources for compiler dev?

Shut the fuck up.
>fell bad for people who get something this close to what they love doing
Work as a waiter or as a janitor, or a job that requires physical labor and pays horribly, after you get your degree and then tell someone to feel bad about writing code in JS' framework of the month.

Yup. Welcome to the real world. A fun and happy place full of logic and sense.

You're not wrong.

I can't defend my past self's lack of authoritative defense against such an accusation. But I can certainly say my inexperience and naivete left me ill-equipped to prepare to do so.

Up until that point, every interview I had pre- and post-grad was conducted with dignity and respect. Sure, post-grad I was rejected and ghosted like crazy. But with the friendly attitude presented, I figured it was just a neck and neck race with all the other graduates.

Suddenly being accused of being a fraud? I was too floored to protest. If anything, it was because that remark kind of elucidated my failure up until that point.

I wasn't getting rejected because I was always losing by an inch to somebody else. I was getting rejected because of my GPA and my resume being dissonant.

And that's when I realized it doesn't fucking matter what you're capable of. Nobody will fucking believe you're worth shit unless your GPA is honors-worthy.

There is the dragon book (old version) for the theory. Do that and you're set forever. But it is a big undertaking without a professor chewing parts of it and feeding you, so you'll want to ease into it. I'd recommend any lisp book which has a chapter on language design, SICP has the meta-circular evaluator, a very nice project, and the prolog embedded language, both won't take much of your time. There is this one tutorial/book about making a lisp interpreter in C, I did not do it though, I just heard good things about it.
Say you do go the dragon way, halfway through you should be able to hack on a real programming language, such as AWK not coincidentally by the authors of the same book.
If you want to sample designing a mini programming language before deciding to delve deeper. Check out chapter 8 of `The UNIX Programming Environment', it should give you a test taste and is probably less than a weekend's time for both reading and implementing the sample project.
Cheers

I know it sounds silly, but something like that happened to me

>get fried from my first part time software developer job as a cs student
>realize one of the biggest software companies in the entire country is 10 minutes away from my place
>apply for a shitty testing position because I am desperate
>get rejected after a good interview
>three weeks later I get an email from global recruiting that the QE department is looking for someone to help with documentation and if I was interested
>said yes
>got a job clocking together funny diagrams in jira and interviewing developers about their shit
>document the I/O process of a 40 year old mainframe application
>point out that it would be nice to just generate these call diagrams from the code itself
>pitch the idea to my boss
>end up writing an eclipse ide for ibm mainframe assembly as the sole developer with minimal oversight, no code review for 12€ an hour
>been doing that for over two years now

I still can't believe I managed to talk myself into a position where I can do my own fucking project the way I like, without any degree and without ever applying to a developer job.

NO BULLI

>12€ an hour
Is that considered good, considering what you're doing?

You're being used as the equivalent of free labor, you didn't "talk yourself into a position where you can do your own fucking project the way you like". And you would still be unhirable. Your life is being paid 12€ an hour forever now. You've been there too long that it's extremely unlikely you can ever go further than that.

This. Career trajectory is very important, you are a documentation guy.

im self taught dropout and my github is very good. ive been offered 3 interviews for senior dev and dozens for junior dev but ive gone to none of them because im scared employers will just embarrass the fuck out of me for even thinking ill get the job without a degree.

Not just that. He's a documentation guy with nothing else to vouch for him.

His career trajectory is basically -9.8m/s^2 straight downward if he ever gets shitcanned.

No, but I am technically still a student employee working in documentation.

Once I graduate I pretty much have a full time job already lined up at the company, but I would have significantly less freedom. I have full control over my shitty pet project, precisely because I am underpaid. I don't think I could get away with the shit I do if I was getting an actual salary. I my desk is in the office of the head of quality endurance and I don't even write unit tests. It's hilarious. The important part is that I am being paid for programing something that I am actually having fun with.

>learned how to use a mainframe
>learned how to program ibm assembly
>learned how eclipse works and how to write plugins for it
>learned how to write a compiler with antlr
I am learning new skills, developing stuff I would normally do in my space time and I am getting paid. What's not to like? I'm also going to put this on my resume as development. The wording on my yearly contract renewals is proof that I am not bullshitting.

Bitch, why do I think I'm still getting my CS degree?

I am self taught too (EE graduate)
and stealing jobs from CS guys since 2010

To be fair, it wasn't obvious that you were still pursuing your degree.

Or maybe I'm just too drunk to infer correctly.

I told my boss that I would be fine with dropping out if he could just get my a permanent job, his response was "fuck off, finish your fucking bachelors". Also, if I wasn't still enrolled in college, I wouldn't be able to still hold my position as student employee. My employment status is dependent on my enrollment status.

We may be taking about different things. I'm looking into luajit trace compiler to see if I could implement a missing feature, specifically FORN and NEXT bytecodes compilation. I have an outline on how it works, but it needs to be fit into existing codebase. And I'm looking at it and comprehend nothing, there's just the sheer complexity of the mechanism that needs to be traced all the way to it's roots to understand it, and it doesn't helps that there are virtually no comments.

68612014(not even worth a you)

>pays horribly
Comparatively an unskilled/min wage worker earns $10-15 per hour while the average for a programmer falls between $20-40.

>after you get your degree and then tell someone to feel bad
So earning a degree would then magically validate someone's opinion about feelings or was that sardonic wit at play? Hey user, do you feel bad for tax payers money going to waste after a few people die from non combat related training incidents involving aircraft or other vehicles?

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>hurr durr muh grades
I want to strangle each and every fucking normie that started this meme that grades means your competent in something.

>the poorest in sweden live worse than Canada
This can't be real, we have homeless people here.