Thought?

>calling a lot of system in today's world is bug ridden
>muh old days no bug

Less than "a lot" is not zero.

use of Dijkstra should be avoided

You can write software that has just fewer bugs. Stuff that won't break unless you kinda try. The current state of things is, people are expected to lose their files or bootloader on a supposedly stable system for all purposes, people are expected to test out stuff for free instead of being paid to do it and for updates to break what was working fine for the sake of it

Yes but by reducing the complexity of your programs you can greatly reduce the number of bugs, and make it easier to spot and fix the ones that do exist.

>recursively complains

>You can write software that has just fewer bugs.
that's not how it works. why would someone write intentionally buggy software?
i agree. cross platform shit should be banned for this very reason.

I agree with him, it's something I've been contemplating for a while so it's good to see 'Big Node' Dijkstra talking about it also, but I'm a dumbass so it doesn't really matter what I think about it

Absolutely true. The second part of the article is the most important part. "How do we categorize accidental and intrinsic complexity?" Its something I'm struggling with at work. We have to do a lot of the same thing over and over, but every time it must be slightly different in such a way that automating it has been a difficult affair which we've put a lot of money and time into. Its certainly gotten better, but in an attempt at generalization for automation we introduced more complexity. How do we quantify the entropy in the problem space? How we find the optimal solution? How we know it's the optimal solution? And how do we formalize the analysis of a particular problem to arrive at the optimal solution? Optimal solution in this case is minimal complexity and implementation time (luckily they are covariant), we really don't have much of a say about performance.

We are writing code for broken CPUs running broken operating systems in broken programming languages, what did you expect.

Too much happened too quickly.

this desu

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>non gender inclusive pronouns.
its not the end of computer science but rather than end of white cis-men controlled computer science

Don't create dogshit.

Remember everyone: Software devs are always cancer and always have been. No exceptions. They're lazy, stupid, trend-hopping faggots and inefficient as fuck. They're the ones who broke the internet, personal computing, gaming and literally everything that uses electronic information.

LOATHE THEM.

Oh give it a fucking rest.

The problem is we're running everything on a big mountain of shit for the sake of compatibility. We would have much less problems if we could just brick all existing hardware, make all current knowledge irrelevant, and program from scratch. Of course that's going to be a bit of a problem for some people.

Drawing one pixel on the screen takes more time than sending a ping across half a fucking planet. Just starting from the ground up and dropping all legacy garbage would improve latency and performance of everything by at least an order of magnitude.

Even the weakest modern hardware should be more than what is needed if the software wasn't shit. I wish people would stop saying the solution is to use bigger and stronger hardware when all that does is brute-force its way through the shitty code.

Honestly, judging by the past shit opinions of devs, if we do ANYTHING your way, the world will literally melt.

The problem is we don't have any languages for modern processors. Even x86 machine code doesn't map to the hardware. The processor manufactures need to design new assembly languages with virtual models based on their hardware but they aren't because everyone is good with just using C.

What absolutely fucking kills me is this incessant claim that technology needs to be "updated" and "modernized" constantly. What the fuck do you think every tech company in existence has been doing for the past two decades? It's fucking cancer. You need to STOP modernizing and go back to the fucking shit that works. Ban any private company from every making software or hardware every again, start physically whipping computer programmers. If a programmer has a suggestion, they get their mouth welded shut. Make shit fucking work again.

I think this is because people expect too much from computers. The utopian view of the technology as taken root so deeply that the computer is in fact just a follower of instructions seems lost on a lot of people. Every half-decade has a "new" technology that will solve all the world's problems.

I actually long for a time when people will admit that computers are actually really boring and mundane (culturally) and just settle for using them for specific tasks rather than demanding that they be all things to all men.

"Pay us to fix something we broke" is basically the story of open source for the last 10 years. There was nothing wrong with KDE 3.* and GNOME 2.* but still they had to just fuck around with things and unsolve problems we no long had so they needed to be solved again.

>The utopian view of the technology as taken root so deeply that the computer is in fact just a follower of instructions seems lost on a lot of people. Every half-decade has a "new" technology that will solve all the world's problems.
virtual reality headsets in a nutshell

>I think this is because people expect too much from computers.
Not really. People were fucking happy with being able to type up a paper, play a game or browse for porn. That's why it had to end. Too much happiness. Too much freedom. God help you if you should try any of that shit today. Everything is proprietary and costs an arm and a leg. You get hard copies of nothing. You own nothing. You must be connected to Corporation X's servers at all times. All your data is for sale. Also, the devs are REALLY worried about """"""security"""""", so half the programs you use (and paid for - no returns) no longer work.

You're welcome.

This thread makes me think of how every review someone has done about Haiku comments on how fast it starts up (for another example look at the mostly ARM assembly RISC-OS) in comparison to even a "streamlined" distro on an SSD.

>Not really. People were fucking happy with being able to type up a paper, play a game or browse for porn. That's why it had to end. Too much happiness
Fucking zoomers
I bet you're a 20 something nostalgic for a time you never experienced
I much prefer today having every piece of information or media available instantly than fucking around on a computer in the 80s or 90s

>every piece of information or media available instantly
And here's the utopianism I mentioned. At least you didn't say that old chestnut "the sum of human knowledge."

Being able to download the complete works of Aristotle in a minute (something you'll do once, if ever) might be great, but 95% of the rest of actually using the device sucks big time.

You nigger. You insufferable corporate kike. I remember the time when you had to scream at your relatives to not use the phone or your image you were trying to look at would freeze up. Eat shit, you little zoomer projectionist. Your fucking generation is what ruined computing in general and programming by claiming fucking EVERYTHING was a secruity risk for your corporate masters. I take back what I said. Computer programmers should be purged entirely. We should just be rid of you all. We'll be better off for it.

>I much prefer today having every piece of information or media available instantly than fucking around on a computer in the 80s or 90s
But you emphatically do NOT. You have much less access to information and freedom OF information now than ever before. Everything is privatized and hidden behind paywalls. Every corporation on Earth is trying to destroy the free transmission of information. Net Neutrality is fucking dead because ISPs wanted more money and power. Go to fucking hell, you dumb piece of cancerous shit.

i actually do believe that we will approach better and better software engineering asymptotically (i'm talking centuries scale here)

well, asymptotically is probably a bad term for it because the requirements and environment aren't fixed. but you get the point i'm making

It's worth noting for historical information that FidoNet is a worldwide network using public and private infrastructure to transmit any and all information. And it wasn't a government or corporate project, but something a bunch of people (geniuses, but that's besides the point) just decided to do.

l
>Ban any private company from every making software or hardware
>Make shit fucking work
Pick exactly one you braindead socialist.

1: Not a socialist
2: Not an argument
3: Socialists always beat capitalists when it comes to any project. That's why Americans are still screaming about a moon landing that was probably faked. They lost every single step of the space race. If they hadn't literally kidnapped Nazi scientists, you wouldn't even have managed that.
>4: Implying corporate trash works

Yeah, but what was the cost of doing it all so fast? Did it really need to be this fast? Was the cost a foundation of messy shit that is so at the heart of all future technology that there's no practical way to correct it? What if we'd gone slower but created a solid base upon which to build. The mistakes and laziness of the past 50 years will haunt technology for centuries to come.

Lol user thinks computers will be around in a century. Talk about utopianism.

I agree with this. The workflow is supposed to include a proper goal, well defined problems, understandable code and thorough testing. But instead, 99 percent of all programmers will slap their keyboard until they have a solution based on their knee jerk understanding of the problem. And that is if they even bother at all. 10 percent of any project will be copied, and pasted directly from StackOverflow.

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Utopianism again. If heaven is over the next hill, why not sprint at it blindly? I mean, yeah, we've fallen down a crevasse and our limbs are gangrenous, but think of how much closer we are to that heaven.

Forgot
t.software dev

It's true I work for a software consultancy and not one of the products we've delivered is simple, everything eventually turns into a huge pile of hard to maintain shit, but that gets us repeat business as the customers need us to maintain the huge pile of shit we've delivered.

Reminds me of that presentation where the Xorg developer talks about all the problems X developed and how Wayland will solve them all...But he was one of the ones involved in the development of those problems.

Considering Red Hat and Canonical get money for supporting Linux, it's no wonder that as they reached such dominance everything started getting significantly worse. Much like how big pharma doesn't actually want healthy people companies like this don't want working software.

well, its true. cis white men have controlled computer science since the mid 80's when they stole it from women and people of color. since then what have cis-white men have done? delivered nothing but horrible software. if women and people of colored didn't have it stolen from them we would be in a golden age.

Yeah, I was wondering which way you were going with that. You sounded like another neonazi. So fucking sick of these god damned neonazis everywhere. And you're right, but not for any reason you've mentioned. White men are greedy fucks and capitalism burns everything it touches as fuel to make more money.

That's a myth from tech illterate retards. Female "programmers" weren't doing what "programmers" do now. They we're human compilers and calculators. White men didn't steal their jobs. Their jobs no longer exists because they people doing the actual computer science work mostly gay or straight males and trannies elimiated their jobs.

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It should be possible to precisely specify desired behavior.
It should be possible to automatically find an optimal and provably correct way of achieving it.
period

Yes, white men have done a real fucking bang-up job the past 20 years. Why fully 1/10 of my programs work now!

Do you not understand me brainlet the woman were not doing any "programming" as you know it now. All of the computer science , and engineering was done by men. All the woman were doing was tedious lame work done automatically by computers now. All they were doing is converting programs writtem by mostly men into machine code or flipping switches based on code written by mostly men. They we're not doing work that we now call "programming". The main difference is programming has a different meaning now and their jobs were made obsolete. They computer science field wasn't taken over by men. It's the same ratio of men doing the same work they've always done. The jobs the women were doing no longer exist just like how you don't use a mules to plow fields anymore. The mules were never farmers and the female "programmers" were never computer scientists or engineers.

The way things are looking, doesn't seem like the men are doing much programming either.

Boomers are shit at everything. They lack discipline and don't like to be told what to do. That's reflected in how the designed operating systems and the languages they favor. It's not about men or women. However, I'm not going to listen to that bold face lie that most computer scientists use to be women that isn't true.

Of course it is. Facts don't care about your feelings, sweaty. Damore should have been publicly hanged.

Preach it, brother

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It's a fact that women have never been the majority of computer scientists or "programmers". Again unless you think mules were farmers before tractors replaced them.

blame C, C++ and Java. good thing secure languages are starting to become a thing, but even then, they are shit.

also this