Are zoomers actually competent programmers...

are zoomers actually competent programmers? In 1997 or so I taught myself visuual basic to write aol script kiddie programs and chat bots. I did this more out of boredom than anything else. No way I'd do that if I had the modern internet.

I know every generation feels this way but for real, kids these days seem retarded. I reccomended a programming book to a zoomer friend and he laughed and said "who the fuck reads programming books!" with some disdain. He's literally a comp sci student... what the fuck is going on? Did you zoomers really learn to program from medium articles and videos? You don't read books?

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amazon.com/Advances-Financial-Machine-Learning-Marcos/dp/1119482089
amazon.com/Pragmatic-Programmer-Journeyman-Master/dp/020161622X
twitter.com/NSFWRedditGif

You learn faster with videos, plus if you have doubts about a subject you can just PM the guy quicker than sending an email to a book author

No shit, their only contact with computing is through cheap smartphones. In Japan it got so bad the government is telling parents to buy PC for their children instead of a smartphone because a fuckton of graduates can't do simple computer tasks and I'm sure the trend is the same in the west.

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Videos are just monkey-see, monkey-do. When you learn from a book you can go at your own pace and it leaves time for you to actually think for yourself.

>whats a computah
According to this the Russian and Chinese hacker meme is real. They dont even appear

>reading books
>not just writing shit and stepping through it to see what it is doing
OP is a pahjeet

Zoomer here. I have read programming books but I may just be an exception. In my experience different people learn different ways, some may be more comfortable with watching videos because they think reading books are boring and rather being told what to do than figure it in their own. In my opinion and from my experience programming videos are usually done by uncharismatic individuals that aren't very captivating as far as their presentation skills go. That's on YouTube anyways, not sure about dedicated learning sites. Books and text on websites are preferable to me.

July 1996 here. I started script kiddying le shut down virus in vbscript and replacing the icon for internet explorer when I was freshly 9 years old. This very quickly spiralled into watching videos on making calculators in VB and auto types auto clickers etc. I was very intuitive though so I picked up very easily on how it was working together. By the time I was 12 I felt I had a decent understanding of how a lot of it worked at an elementary level. Conditions, file linking, classes and objects. I felt very proud that I could open up RuneScape private servers and recode the entire thing and understand all of it and how it works while I was in middle school.

It was at 14 going into high school that I realized it's time to learn stuff for real and drop whatever bad habits I had. I abandoned Java and VB and adopted C#. It was at this time I realized that programming is internal and syntax is just a means of achieving the same goals I already had. So I learned c# in like 2 weeks. I worked with my high school teacher and did my final within the first 2 months and was a student """teacher""" for the rest of my high school. Only for the programming class obviously. I tutored and graded and submitted it to my teacher.

>During this time I had read like 8 or 9 books between syntax and programming theory.

I even got the chance to work with a few aldebaraan robots which are pricey as fuck. I got to go to a conference in Boston. Trust me. Very intimidating being a 14 year old surrounded by 50 year old professors from notre dame and MIT and from colleges overseas. They were all super friendly and I learned a lot that weekend. They were excited to see young potential.

However, I developed gastroparesis in my junior year. This caused me great pain. I won't go into length but I missed about 107 full school days that year. I left school for my senior year. I completed early online and started working full time after school was over.

I hate programming now though.

Same with a video, you can pause and rewind if something wasn't clear, you are also supposed to think for yourself. Some people copy everything from the video in the same way that people just copy the examples from the book and think they are making any progress.

Zoomers will take over the world when they grow up. Millennials are a failed generation.

You can actually watch MIT lectures on computer science for free. So I don't see any problems with that. Pair it with a book and you have basically a good learning method

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My impression is that youtube programmers are either attention whores or spergs.

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Cont

My first job was cybersec for a well known social media company. I had a lot of trouble blending in with my peers.

Everyone I was working with was a decade older than me, and as a woman in an all male office I felt uncomfortable. There was one guy let’s call him Luke who always chatted me up. Luke was 40 years old and a neck beard. He always had lucky star chibi desk toys, and would demand everyone in the office played with them. Luke was our manager.

One day we were working on hardening our sql servers when Luke invited me to dinner at his place. I rolled my eyes but he told me there might be a raise in it for me, and that everyone else was coming. I reluctantly went

When I arrived I was disgusted. There were beer cans everywhere and lucky star fucktoys. I whistled for a cab and when it came near the license plate said FRESH and there were dice in the mirror. If anything I could say that this cab was rare but I said nah forget it yo home to bel-air!

I pulled up to the house around seven or eight and I yelled to the cabbie yo homes smell ya later! Looked at my kingdom I was finally there, to sit on my throne as the prince of bel-air

People are much more careful with language and can convey deeper ideas through written text than mere talk. Books lend themselves better to meditation upon the theory behind things than multimedia formats.

>visual basic

no.

Those countries not being OECD members might also have something to do with it.

cont. It's not that you can't pause the video, it's just that studying by books it's by default slower, unlike with a video, that has its own pace.

zoomer here.
I read the C programming language book (for free online, of course, I am not spending my money on it) all the way through and found it extremely useful.
i am not intelligent by any standard. i am not attending college and i work at a grocery store, but i understood it. this means that zoomers who are like the zoomer in your post are lower iq than me, which is really fucking sad

zoomer also here
we still read
my hs library was closing last year and were giving out a bunch of books. Picked up "Programming Microprocessors" and a bunch of older computer books.

What the fuck is that graph? All the visual artifacts. How the title clips the y-axis labels. That someone went in and put colours over each category when they were already labelled. That they put the *wrong* colours in, either initially or in post, such that I can't tell if dark blue is meant to represent those that opted out of the assessment or those that had no prior experience with computers.

I fucking hate Pajeets

That really depends on the author though, with video it's the same, not every lecturer is an Indian that barely speaks English and is just winging it. The good ones actually have a well thought script that they follow. It just feels more natural and so you can progress faster.

Fucking kek! Why didn't I think of it this
+500 your way pal

Gen Z here, born in 2000. This is true, but only because less people are self taught these days. People now are choosing career paths based on how much money they'll make, regardless of their actual skills or their desire to do the work of that specific field. It's all about money for these shallow NPC retards and it really shows in the slop they shit out.

On the other hand, the self taught hobbyists of my generation are making some of the best shit around.

This. I've downloaded numerous programming books and I just read them on my tablet in bed. I also work a grocery store. What's up, my fellow McWagecuck? Have you also been getting those old people in who bitch about Kroger dropping their low sodium ham?

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Of course faggot. That's the most efficient way so throw away your duckling syndrome and follow the future.

>just follow ur dreams!
Shut the fuck up idiot. There is nothing wrong with picking a field for the money.

I taught myself QuakeC to make mods when I was 10.

Then played Diablo 2 for a decade and forgot it all and anything related.

Woops.

I work in Sprout's, so no, sounds like shit though

>There is nothing wrong with picking a field for the money
I don't want a heart surgeon or an airline pilot that's just there for the paycheck. There's everything wrong with it, you massive faggot.

My dad works for some tech company selling all sorts of whacky shit and occasionally does the supplementary courses on coding and architecture and what not so he can better demonstrate how it works or have a better understanding so he can sell it better to professionals, and he said that at one of the courses the zoomer coders and tech people asked me if he wasn't out of his depth, to which he replied that the professional zoomers shouldn't need the supplementary courses in the first place.

But how else are you going to get Stacy's mudflaps smeared on your face without large amounts of money user?


C'mon, give (((us))) $500k for a college education you could otherwise get in 3 months at the library, so you don't die alone!

No seriously though.
I actually never got a job in IT or programming. I did a few freelance jobs for small companies in my area when I was 18 but that was it.

I've actually been in private security sector since 18 and will entering the police academy soon. I was always active and loved my fighting sports. And I love security.

Secretly can't wait to kick down neckbeard door and stop hacks real time like a big CIA man.
Joking. Obviously.

fix yourself
install gentoo
boomer

>hurr your job isn't actually a job if you enjoy doing it
fuck this shit. choose an easy career with lots of money. my brother decided that instead of becoming an engineer or a lawyer or a doctor or literally any other job with a valid degree he was going to go to school to be a historian.
needless to say he has student loans out the ass and no respectable job to show for it.
do the thing that gives you the most wealth with the least amount of (time+energy+commitment-enjoyment). money can buy you lots of things. you can't pay your bills in passion. enjoying your career isn't going to put food on the table. money may not buy all the happiness in the world but it comes damn near close.

Protip: hookers spread their lasagna curtains for $50 and a few shots of vodka and carry none of the emotionally, socially, or financially costly baggage that the average roastie does.

>college is a requirement
Lmao, so you choose high paying jobs to justify your own debt enslavement? Absolutely pathetic. I might be poor but I'm not in debt. My money is my own.

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I never said college is a requirement. You don't need any sort of degree to run a company and for a lot of people that may be the perfect option. hella bank too if you get picked up by venture capitalists or otherwise scale up or become successful.
being poor might be if not is the worst thing you can be in this world. you are never going to be as happy as a richfaag and you can't even drown your sorrows in materialistic distractions.
I'd rather be rich and in debt than poor and debtless.

Books usually go more in depth but some videos are well made.

Being poor but not too poor is like running Debian. It's stable and it's life on easy mode if you don't fuck with it too much. I get up, I go to work, I go home, I cook myself a nice meal, have something to drink, shitpost, then go to bed. Then I do hobbyist programming on the weekends. There are no long hours at the office, there is no open office plan hell, there is no faggoty chit chat at the water cooler. There's no student debt, no traveling all over the place for business. I get to sit where I am and be lazy.

You see, many poorfags don't choose to be poor. They're poor because they can't handle their finances correctly. I make peanuts and budget with the stinginess of three hebrews and it works well for me. Maybe I'm autistic but I enjoy the stability I have as a poorfag.

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I turned 18 this year, I started programming with python 3.2 and mainly worked with that. I started doing work with C/C++ about 3 years ago and I've become a slave to the minimalism meme. I value good software over quick software.

>he laughed and said "who the fuck reads programming books!"
He's right. Books are some of the slowest and least efficient ways to learn programming concepts

I disagree, they're better simply because it's easier to focus on them. The digital environment is too epileptic for learning.

>so you choose high paying jobs to justify your own debt enslavement
Even if you get into "insane debt" like 50k USD that's only the amount a burger would spend on their SUV, a fraction of what their cardboard mcmansions cost, or even a single hospital visit.

You probably use stack overflow dont you

You're probably not a real programmer

Let me tell you something kid. Gainfully employed programmers do not sit on stack overflow. They read documentation and books. The quality of stack overflow is so poor because its only used by students and the recently graduated looking for a quick answer to a problem they don't understand.

>Gainfully employed programmers do not sit on stack overflow.
You're definitely not a real programmer

Maybe not 'real' by your fantasy definition but I have a career in programming and the only ones using stack overflow are our interns. I suspect you might be one of them.

Keep LARPing my man. It's a good look for you.

I use both. Docs first, stack if I hit a wall.

This is correct. Docs and books will provide most the answers with stack overflow for the edge cases.

Zoomers have it so easy
>grew up in poor Slav immigrant family
>library only had 10+ year old books on java
>none of my code would run since everything was out of date

But hey, cheap vodka, so it evens out.

Kids these days cant touch type and it fucken sickens me

Almost everyone on YouTube is an attention whore.

>making AOL chat progs in VB
Oh man, does that take me back...

I never read any of my books in school, just did the programming projects and used online references, and now I work for Amazon

I'd say I have a similar opinion to yours. People are more concerned with "how do you make x happen" rather than "how does y make x happen". For a while I was trying to find a good programming book and most just told me how to do things. In my mind, I was thinking if I wanted this I would look at some fucking documentation.
Then a friend of mine showed me a developer's reference and it told me how it worked under the hood; provided in depth knowledge into the workings of the language and its systems. I was deeply satisfied by this because it offered more information than I even wanted to know in regards to how the language and its system worked. For those interested the book is CLR via C#.
tl;dr They simply care about how to do something, not how something works on its fundamental level.

You win some, you lose some.

Zoomer here. I wouldn't read a book to learn a new programming language, but I read books from time to time on higher concepts, hard C.S. or conceptual. Things like amazon.com/Advances-Financial-Machine-Learning-Marcos/dp/1119482089 or amazon.com/Pragmatic-Programmer-Journeyman-Master/dp/020161622X can't be taught through youtube videos and are indivisible enough to appear in book format.

But tool usage or language syntax? Why would I pay for a 5+ year old book to teach me how to use some meme framework when i can get the exact, up to date, concise information I need using google? I don't understand that kind of purchasing decision. How-to's belong in man pages or documentation I can reference immediately, not in some ever-degrading textbook.

There are online courses and hands-on modules all over the place these days. Most programming books are shit and read more like an encyclopedia of terms rather than education material.

Learning from one set of people is good because you see their ehtos throughout the book through a variety of problems, it makes it easier to understand the higher level thinking behind it.

O'Reilly books are unironically great if you decide to buy.

Welcome to IGOs

Zoomer, who is at college, here. One of my classes for my IT degree involves "web programming" which is just a glorified PHP class. We have an excellent book that clearly explains things with many examples and the PHP isn't too difficult, but the younger people in my class struggle to grasp the basics of things like file r/w/a, conditional statements, for and while loops, and arrays. We didn't even get to the chapters about functionsn mySQL and OO programming.

Reading SICP from these guys taught me how to do the basics. More valuable than any other texts.

No, unless you’re fucking retarded, you don’t.
Videos are significantly fucking slower than reading and more irritating because of the irrelevant information speech patters tend to introduce.
Bar stuff that has to be taught visually, videos are an inferior method of learning.
Anyone who relies on them is subhuman and I feel nothing but cold disdain for them.

I've always felt like for programming, written text is better than videos, because a program is, after all, written text. You can slow down an analyse it.

Plus sometimes a published textbook is just better than some cunt's blog/vlog.

>rich
>in debt
Pick one.

20 year old zoomer here, I spend 30 mins - 1 hour each night with all devices off sitting on my bed reading programming books, it's extremely /comfy/.
Also it gives my brain something useful to mull over while I get to sleep.

This is no lie. I'm in an introductory programming class as part of my MechEng curriculum, there are more than a handful of actual compsci majors in that class who still have trouble working with a terminal and simple SSH commands, even now at the end of the semester.

a lot of online resources teach you bad practices by default

i see this especially with C++
if you google "how to x", sites like geeksforgeeks will show you a terrible pajeet way to implement it
someone who read and understood "Modern C++ Design" back in the early 2000s is still way better off than someone following online tutorials today

>Flanders actually doing something right
Holy shit.

Videos use only brainlets.
Real guyz use this.

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>he can't pause videos

I live in Poland, and the only way I can rationalize this statistic is that a lot of families have incel computer wizards (like me) that they call upon whenever something with laptop goes bad.
Wit their help they grow lazy and less knowledgeable about electronics.

Fellow boomer here. In 1997 or so I taught myself Turbo Pascal, then C (then Perl, HTML, CSS and PHP before the broadband era of constant distraction arrived and irreversibly fucked up my attention span). I'd take a book (or text in general) over some faggy youtuber's long-winded attempt at explaining shit with his gay voice and irritating speech patterns any time, but I also realize kids these days have it harder to get into programming than we did.

Back in the day, all you needed to know was the language and how to use the compiler. When in doubt, you'd just refer to a book, docs or help and that was that.

Nowadays you have to know the language, the language's previous iteration that's still widely used, the language's next iteration that's just around the corner and will introduce a fuckton of changes, 6 competing frameworks and big-ass libraries that attempt to make the language usable... no wait, make that 7 competing frameworks.... wait, it's 8 now... wait, it's 6 again because apparently two of them are considered obsolete as of last hour... also the language's package manager, and git, and babel, and vagrant and docker and god fucking knows what else.

I guess if you were to read a book about each of those, the entire ecosystem would change by the time you're done.

Videos are absolute trash, you can't search them and they are so fucking slow in getting to the point. Books are slow too but sometimes you need the details they provide and you can search them. Code examples with step by step debugging are the best way to learn.

>can search books
?

Only books really worth reading about programming aren't about code. Once you've got any lang under your belt that language level shit should be obvious. Videos are pretty good at walking through projects and explaining why the fuck shit's there, especially if they'll respond.

>?
I assumed electronic books.

Im a 1998 zoomer in austria. I work as a backend dev and devops engineer. Started programming at around 11, 12 years old.

I'm another zoomer
I haven't read K&R but it's only because I was lucky enough to get a lot of time working with C both in college and in my internship. I've read Tannenbaum's Computer Networks as well as Operating Systems: Design and Implementation, and I'm starting on SICP currently. I bought all 3 because I find that I can focus better with a hard copy in front of me, but I don't think less of e-book readers.
I was pretty lucky to be born slightly smarter than average, and to have a couple of parents who pushed me as a kid even though I hated it at the time. It's sad that some of my peers actually think poorly of reading.

>slovak republic
how the fuck there are so many people without any computer experience there?

Kids got no fucking clue how a computer works. Younger siblings have no idea how to do anything outside of launch games on steam when around their age I was building servers to host stuff for myself.

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link?

ocw.mit.edu also most other major tech unis do it.

zoomers code, not program.

It honestly depends on the intelligence of the person and how they learn best, you don't objectively learn better visually, it's different for different people lord tardicus.

>I was building servers
wow you can put premade parts together in the way they were designed for you to do

Something 99% of people can't accomplish.

What are some good computer related books to read? I have a few in mind but no proper list

Millennial zoomer here (born 94, dab & oof regularly, use reddit spacing, been here since 2010 tho)

I went through my entire CS degree reading only the notes given by lecturers on blackboard. Didn't read a single book or watch a single video that wasn't given to us.

Graduated 4.0 top of class, paid masters scholarship which I completed and noe work for one of the big 5. No side projects but did have an internship which was required for my degree.

All you need is to actually have an interest in computers and not be a brainlet. Most people fail because they just couldn't be bothered to show up to class or do assignments. That's it. Hell even brainlets could pass they class if they just read lecture notes and slides.

You can learn by watching too

>thinks he's hot shit because he regurgitated exactly what the courses needed
>thinks he's a good programmer

In all likehood you are a garbage programmer because you didn't do any more research/study than the bare minimum they threw at you.

>that seething projection
Sorry you're a brainlet that couldn't make it.

Never said I was good senpai. Don't care to be, I have no issues doing my job and I make bank and that's fine with me.

My point was the bare minimum is all you need to succeed and most people don't even do that. That's the issue with zoomers and milennials.

Zoomers, also known as Millennials, have very short attention spans, so, no: they tend to be bad at programming.

Holy shit you massive faggots, has it never occurred to anyone that maybe the most effective way to learn something is a COMBINATION of different mediums, why limit yourself to one resource when there's so much out there? Obviously reading books is necessary for higher level concepts but anyone shitting on others for introducing themselves to a language through an online tutorial is just being bitter. Tutorials help me with basic introductions to language and books help me clean up bad habits and learn more advanced concepts.

>kids these days
Ok.

Exactly, people learn differently. I've never read a programming book, I just use the language reference, library references, and others code. I've read alot of articles (not tutorials) about specific topics and different languages but to me books are a waste of time because I'm not interested in programming exercises because I'm not a programmer.

>hurrr computers are magic, just use all this abstractions and don't think about it
fuck MIT lispers, seriously

>Boomers, also known as millennials.
FTFY, boomer.

Kids care less about how computers work because the abstraction now reaches babel tower proportions. Only oldfags can make sense of all the way from top to down, and only if they lived through the period as abstractions got piled on. A lot of boomers just gave up and opted to be stuck in the pat (C zealotry, Rust zealotry etc).

Doesn't mean all those javascript monkeys are entirely useless. The market itself is always adapting for the easiest mode of production, and throwing more abstraction and hardware at problems is definitely it.

(cue electron instead of native apps)

fdskljfdkjhlkjdsahflkzhjx

While it's true most programming learning isn't from books, who the hell looks down on that? Gen Z here. Learned from online versions of books, tutorial pages, and documentation, like the python docs and tutorialspoint for C, etc. Not videos.