Lets Unionize

Unions protect people in unskilled jobs. If you are hard to replace you don't need a union to protect your interests, as you will already be fairly compensated.

That said, the reality is that union organizations are the modern day equivalent of mobsters charging protection money, only now they do it legally and force corporations to pay into funds that provide benefits to the workers, like a permanent salary for the union's management, and investment funds for them to play with.

>That said, the reality is that union organizations are the modern day equivalent of mobsters charging protection money
This is propaganda with no basis in reality. Especially when corporations spend an absurd amount of time and money trying to strip away any power unions do have.

(good) programmers are underpaid. (shit) programmers are overpaid. not sure a union is a good idea, though standards bodies similar to what civil engineers have would be a good start. we need to purge the garbage from our industry.
There needs to be some basic knowledge and standards for all systems we create for our customers. for normal corporate shit, you should know how to data model, how to do distributed programming and concurrency control... it amazes me the amount of systems I come across that simply do not meet some basic requirements like these.

>programmers
>hard to replace
LOL

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Good programmers are hard to replace, yes. Some h1bs are good programmers and are compensated accordingly

ironically, a lot of programmers are communists

i guess they never read the history of the bourgeois engineers and the bolshevik engineers that replaced them.

t. Union Employee
Employees are a parasite a level above public sector workers. Still terrible, but some of them do real work.

Union employees I mean.

Not many at all actually, which is quite unfortunate, a lot of them buy into full blown anarchy libertarianism.

>Employees are a parasite
What an interesting take and not at all what a bootlicker would say to justify their shit takes on unions.
It's ok dude, I'm totally sure you'll become a billionaire in no time and if that doesn't happen it's 100% because of a union.

Don't be a faggot. Every business has a formula by which all must abide including management.

Take California's min wage increase for example. They are forcing wage's up. well there are only was balance the formula. 1. Leave the State. 2. Fire employees. or 3. Increase prices.

3 won't work because people will buy somewhere else in this very connected work so we're left with 1 or 2. Neither of those is good for the worker.

Unions do the same thing on a smaller scale except 3 is almost never an option since now the problem isn't being applied to everyone.

>bootlicker
You don't know what that mean. A union can bar you from finding work you retarded. They're the second hardest boot there is out there, just behind government. In South Africa white unions pushed a law to limit the number of black employees to protect white jobs. Why they did that? Because black employees were cheaper in South Africa. They're part of the boot you absolutely fucking retard. And don't get me started on the shady stuff they involve with construction in New York to this very day, or the threats and even murders of strikebreakers that plenty of unions are involved.

Why would they?
I am not a $9/h scrub with only 1 skillset, I have a PhD, 10 years experience in my field and know pretty useful math and statistics. Even if you form a union that will bring my income down by huge % and put ceiling on possible income, and put a barrier for newcomers etc. I can still move to different field with the same income.

If you are retarded and can't hold a job above minimum wage in your state... I feel sorry for you, commie.

You sure will become a milionaire once you unionize!
See... you will say you don't want to be one, same here, I don't wanna be a billionaire, but there is inflation, there is entropy and I can't work 100% of my time while alive. I will have to retire at some point and if I can't invest my big bucks now, they will be worth 30-40% less after 30 years, if not even worse than that. And, being free to manage my income, savings etc. I can be sure I will live comfy life, being independent of the gov, union or any other mediocre bureaucrat out there.

real programmers are ancap, but claim communism

isnt it 5% of all indian developers that are qualified to actually work in the field or have the skills to do so ? Who exactly is going to replace these high skilled programmers in your mind ? People comming from shit hole countries where they teach them Java in 10 tutorials and give a certificate ?

Look at the answers.
Here is why.

They can't code for shit. No wonder Indians are replacing them.

so effectively change the color of their skin with no change to work ?

What? I agree with you that good programmers are not going to be replaced by someone from India with a Java certificate, just saying that I've worked with good Indian/Chinese H1Bs that had an actual CS education and were paid well. There's bad H1Bs sure but H1B isn't indicative of programming skill because it's a visa status lol

you are implying that shitskins replace americans because they are simply immigrants.
While on average they are unfit to work, they dont finish degrees in universities or simply their degree isnt worth as much as an american one.
Im Aussie and 1/8th of all Chinese/Indian students in my CS classes are competenet programmers and arent just blatant retards, they all copy of each other and barelly graze through any classes

So you want two bosses trying to fuck with you and profit off your back instead of one.

Good luck on that!

The anti-union propaganda is strong. The Authority's methods of sowing division are deep rooted and pervasive.

The workers have been widely convinced to be grateful for the opportunity to get fucked, that it is a critical milestone for developing their career.

>Unions protect people in unskilled jobs.
Because webshit ia high skill work?
The people ductaping a dozen javascript frameworks to make 50MBs text pages and Electron text editors that eat 400MBs of ram to open an empty file are truly inreplaceable, yes.
The truth is that most programmers are just the new factory workers.

People want to call themselves engineers withot owning up to the responsabilities.
Accountability is a sick joke in tech

unions are authorities

Shitty unions that have been co-opted by management.

They don't really count.

They don't need to do it necessarily, all they need to do is prop up the commies wanting to do the unions, watch em fail, and then use the failure as propaganda to stop any GOOD idea that might pop up.

You have to assume that everyone is actually thinking on a way to get more money, even the people proposing unions.
So, it will inevitably be turned into some scheme to make someone on the top of the food chain richer, rather than the original goal.
Either you come up with a scheme that make use of the greed of the members to deliver good or you watch the shit burn to the ground.

No true Scotsman.

Given the sheer density of anti-union propaganda the way they react to them (Walmart will straight up close stores down) the Big decision makers a pretty fucking terrified of unions. If that naturally fell apart they wouldn't be nearly so terrified.

That's faulty logic by both of you. First, it's incredibly hard to demonstrate to the general public that something doesn't work compared to something that does work (or pretending that it does). The biggest problem with Unions is that they work closely related to the government. If they were a purely voluntary endeavor they would be allowed to fail much like no name business are allowed to fail. By that account, even if the union is absolutely terrible and fucks everybody but a few selected individuals it would still be hard to repeal or replace much like it is to replace a useless law/organization, like the Landmark Preservation Commission in NYC.

>Shitty unions that have been co-opted by management.
ie all of them

A union that fails to represent its workers is not a proper union. For example, a number of dictatorships claim to be democracies but only go through some motions and thoroughly fail to actually represent the will/interest of their people.

German unions seem pretty decent.

You're still trying to make a system that works on good will of man, and that's something that never works.
But something that DO work is to create a rival company that offers better conditions, and force the corporations to fight over for them, but thanks to infinite patents and copyrights, this is getting harder and harder.

So you should get all your energy and use it to fuck with patents and copyrights and everything else will solve itself.

Unions are cancer

Do you use impossible to define terms on purpose or do you genuinely don't realize you're doing it?

You should read your posts before quoting them. I'm and I agree with you. My whole post was pointing that Union doesn't work because it's not voluntary. And I even doubly agree with you when it comes to patents. I'm rabidly anti-copyright and patents in general.

Unions should be independent of the government and voluntary. As a fundamental point of order, if they people who are supposed to be representing your interest repeatedly fail you should be able to replace them.

>A trade union, also called a labour union or labor union (US), is an organization of workers who have come together to achieve many common goals, such as protecting the integrity of their trade, improving safety standards, and attaining better wages, benefits (such as vacation, health care, and retirement), and working conditions through the increased bargaining power wielded by the creation of a monopoly of the workers

Behold, the impossible has been achieved.

Disc reading errors happen from time to time.

The downside of STEM is most are bootlicking cucks with no critical thought.
Also most programming work is in the US where the red scare is still alive so you get things like .

>unions are faulty therefore corporations fucking you in the ass are a better alternative
sasuga tripfag

Nice try, I'm not american

>force corporations to pay into funds that provide benefits to the workers
Oh no, those poor corporations getting ruined by tyrannical, ungrateful workers!

why would you give up your sheckles for protection you wouldn't even get all unions are shit. Just go to China then if you want a union for everything.

all of your points are shit and you should feel bad. We should not control other people there will always be a hierarchy within any group. I don't get why you want to fuck yourself over with work version of communism, people are independent/complicated they don't need the pressure of a workers union fucking them over if they don't go to work every day.

>You sure will become a milionaire once you unionize!
said no one ever

Sounds about right. I consider myself commie but hate unions. With UBI you would have your safety net and could leave your crappy job at any time without worrying about finances. The market would take care of shitty companies without any need for unions.

Unions are for communists

You've never been part of a union my own father made sure I didn't get part of one because how fucked they are.

Even in the US they're shit even in Britain they're shit.

This. A powerful union would have easily blocked this and secured another century of software jobs for Americans. And it would have protected the US from what I call reverse brain drain, where our resources go into training foreign workers who return home and build up their local industries. America is being sold out and programmers still think they're above it because they're autistic manchildren with no ambition, just hobbies.

Most programmers get half their pay based on stock and have tons of income from other investments. It makes no sense for them to align with the "workers".

Ancap has nothing to do with communism, other then the inevitable explotation of the working class in both ideologies

>Just go to China then if you want a union for everything.
Ah yes, the country closest to an actual ancapistan with absolutely no unions or any workers rights for that matter, let alone quality control or safety standards.

>all of your points are shit and you should feel bad.
Amazing discourse.

>We should not control other people there will always be a hierarchy within any group
I hope you realize why you've contradicted yourself within the same sentence.

>I don't get why you want to fuck yourself over with work version of communism
According to you, anything that is harmful to corporations and good for employees is "communism"?

>people are independent/complicated
Okay.

>they don't need the pressure of a workers union fucking them over if they don't go to work every day
I don't know what this has to do with unions or why you think your boss would be nicer than an union if you fail to attend your job.

I used to hate unions.
Until I got a job at Boeing.
Holy shit, the union is kick ass compared to non-union Aerospace jobs.
We don't get fucked over with wages.
I get $1hr raise every year guaranteed
After 6 years you get ur job code max pay
In my case $39 an hour. Some are $47+.
(Industry average is $18)
There are a bunch of rules when it comes to benefits and hours worked.
They can't fire me without cause.
Guys have shown up drunk and got sent to rehab and not fired.

the only thing more retarded than someone who supports unions is a nationalist

>workers union fucking them over if they don't go to work every day

What that? You dont like the idea of being forced into exploitative 14 hour shifts 6 days a week with beatingd and having your life destroyed if you put a toe out of line?

You sound like a filthy union lover, GTFO you filthy pleb

>The eight-hour day movement or 40-hour week movement, also known as the short-time movement, was a social movement to regulate the length of a working day, preventing excesses and abuses. It had its origins in the Industrial Revolution in Britain, where industrial production in large factories transformed working life. The use of child labour was common. The working day could range from 10 to 16 hours, and the work week was typically six days a week

>I get $1hr raise every year guaranteed
wow, that's amazing!

Well, I hope you don't mind getting fired and replaced with an immigrant doing your same work for half the pay.

a better question is why are stemlords so cucked lol

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Unfortunately I have a job that requires skill, talent and intelligence

Compared to getting 10 cents a year, it's a lot.
I also get around 60 cents a year in cost of living adjustments.
And bonuses.
I get $15,000 in 2020 per the contract.
Unions are kick ass.

>anything that benefits us and not our sacrd corporate job givers is gommunism
Poor people getting duped into thinking poor people are the problem yet again. We really need to freshen the genes in the red states.

>Unions are for communists
I'm not a fucking loser that cares about ideologies, I care about not getting fucked by corporations.

>You've never been part of a union
When I was still in university I worked at Starbucks because I got told they had an amazing syndicate and they weren't wrong. Now that I'm in programming I can't be part of a union because there fucking aren't any.

>my own father made sure I didn't get part of one because how fucked they are
You're accusing me of never being part of a union because I disagree with you and then tell me you've never been in one yourself, and worse, not because of a personal experience but because your daddy didn't let you.

Realisticly what westerner who hasnt already compelted a CS BA could get the same job as a person who did ? Nobody, unless they have a high end STEM degree and programming experiance (not saying CS is programming major)
Just because a immigrant is willing to do the same job for 1/2 the pay doesnt mean he will work aswell as the original employee, imagine you work at a car factory where the skill level is really low and everything that you can be automated, it would make more sense to send the comapny overseas then hire from abroad and to get cheaper grunts.
In programming you hire a person based on problem solving, seeing statistics of these so called "engineers" from India and many low income countries suggests less then 5% are competent in any way in addition to the person not only being competent but also excelling in problem solving tasks ie: algorithms, bigO just to name a few.
You arent looking at a large amount of people overseas who arent already going to a good university and who already expect to make the same amount if not more then the employers across the board are paying.
TLDR Its unreasonable (unless the work you do is already so simple it can be done by anyone) that you will be replaced by someone who doesnt have the same expectation of pay and benefits to replace you.

Why is everyone who makes a retarded post American and assumes everyone else is American?

Adds up to quite a bit. Better than the 1% you get I guaruntee it.

That's what they always say before getting replaced by someone better or equal but accepting a lower wage.

I got a 5% salary increase and 90k equity refresh that vests over 4 years this year. Didn't even get promoted.

Because Americans are the retards who call anything communism. Non-American 4channers are honorary Americans because they adopt their worldview after spending enough time in here.

lol @ Trumpcucks who were angry about H1-Bs. You didn’t actually think republishit “businessmen” were going to give up their cheap source of indentured servitude did you?

Immigrants are only good at low-skilled labour
The Indian programmer meme is a meme for a reason

It's not literally communism, it just amounts to the same thing, more bureaucratic bullshit to stifle innovation and give parasites positions of power

lol Equity. You realize equity in a dead company is worh nothing when it goes tits up and your boss golden parachutes out right?

Conservatives need a gene cleansing no matter where jn the world they are.

It's only been going up for the past 30 years. Surely the crash will come soon right?

Surely your doing it on purpose, or you're retarded. I'm still not sure. Either way, the terms which are absolutely meaningless are as follows:
>proper union
According to whom? Since you're, I assume, are talking about the current state of unions which are NOT voluntary by default, we cannot possibly access what a proper union would be without disregarding the opinion of a sizeable portion of affiliates AND NON AFFILIATES! That's the whole issue.

>will/interest of their people
The same as the above. There's no such thing as will of the people. At least not when it comes to government policy. Government is, by default, a series of tradeoffs. But something that you will is not something that someone else will have to be sacrificed for.

But alas I recognize you're an ally since you clarify in the same post that they should be
>independent of the government and voluntary
We're on the same side disagreeing on details, or maybe just misunderstanding each other. According to this parameters, the "will of the people" is not ill-defined, since you're not forced to be represented.

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>country closest to ancapistan
That's why I know you're retarded. When anarchist argues against those stuff is not to their existence, but to their coercive power. When anarchists argues against unions, is not because they exist, but because they force you. When they argue against regulations, is not because it makes people safe, but because it makes cumbersome to small companies to comply, because you exclude choice from the equation and may even damage some people who would get the benefit if it weren't for it. When arguing against "worker's right" it's not because they want everyone to die, but because working regulations cause more harm to the unskilled or low skilled, you price them out of jobs by your "kind" actions. But why am I wasting my time?

I was in a eurofag cross-company union for engineers!

Here's what they offered:
>Industry salary statistics, long before Glassdoor was a thing
>Collective bargaining rates for insurance and similar
>Successfully lobbied for an extra week of vacation
>Free legal assistance in any employment matter
>Tech classes and networking events

Here's what they didn't have:
>Any say in who gets promoted where
>Any say in anyone's salary

It was fucking amazing to have people to talk to and compare notes with that weren't working for the same people they pretended to protect you against. 10/10 would join again.

Union - is an organization of workers who have come together to achieve many common goals - through the increased bargaining power wielded by the creation of a monopoly of the workers

If the workers cannot freely organize, its not a real union. Its essentially a donkey painted to look like a Zebra, to provide the illusion of power while preventing any serious agency on behalf of the workers.

I'm salaried. I work from home. I do roughly 1-3 hours of programming work per day. I'm available to respond via email whenever but it's rare.

A union would mean I have to track my hours, which would mean I would have to lie. Not interested.

>>Guys have shown up drunk and got sent to rehab and not fired.
So in other words the union is protecting the fuckups that really do deserve to get fired?

t. Worthless amerifat

Wouldn't need unions if you had national socialism. Not Marxist socialism

Thats up to the union.

In my experience with an alcoholic parent that was in a union, they mostly kept one or two dumb moves by my dad from getting him immediately fired and more or less marched him into AA.

Go back to Jow Forums nazi

Because unions are counter-productive in white collar jobs

based socialist thread
I see smart people are out tonight

not him, but quick reminder that a mode of production cannot kill anyone
as such, communism and corporatism (national socialism) are morally fine to advocate without the need to mention nazi or soviet deeds

unions are for commies and nationalist-socialists yes they were pro union do you not know what socialist means, christ people are dumb, it was an avant garde mix of left and right wing ideologies why do you think apples whole motto is think different? because they are hipster hitler NAZIS, anyway im a libertarian.

Care to back that up? Just about every example of "national socialism" I have seen seems to have some key mention of Jews and how much they ruin everything and how you cant trust foreign owned (that means Jewish) businesses.