Tell me how you really feel

I agree that NATO should have attacked Turkey for the invasion of Cyprus

you realize that NATO was borne of an alliance between France and Britain right

if America wants to keep controlling the MENA they will always need Turkey as an ally.
Turkey is more geostratigically important than Greece and the push comes to shove Greece will always get second place.
I'm talking about the present.

you want us to spend whatever amount of GDP on our army but you dont us so what we will do is buy private jets/helicopter for our politicans and paint it green, call it part of the airforce and you will believe we indeed expanded our defense capacity

fair enough, I respect your opinion
but I do think that if the deterrence factor of NATO were turned down, and hostile powers like Russia, China, or even "allied" Turkey were to turn their heads, Greece would be in an incredible amount of trouble similar to what happened during Ottoman times

You guys might not consider it important, but I can assure you that Americans are emotional sacrificial sacks of shit who are willing to take a bullet for Europe. I'm not entirely happy with this fact, but it's the truth. I'd rather see that military money spent on social services.

do you have an article about this? even Hungarian will be fine, I'll use google translate

if NATO went away I would seriously 100% doubt russia wouldn't do anything

Military Police for the US Armed Forces.

>Israel isn't even in it
USA is in it though and all of you suck kike dick so hard you can barely breathe. I don't want to fight your kike wars and I don't want anymore shitskin refugees because of you.

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Russia;s nuclear stockpile is the issue here, which exceeded ours even back in the 1980s, and even after Ukraine decommissioned all theirs. Nuclear weapon states act differently from non-nuclear ones.

It's funny that Ukraine signed a treaty of security assurance with the USA and Russia when decommissioning their nukes, and then in 2014 they got utterly fuckin crushed. If that's not a sign, I don't know what is friendo

What police actions have they done? Afghanistan under USA leadership and Libya under French leadership are obvious ones, but that's not a bad record for an entity that has 60+ years of history.

Dangerous for sovereign countries, best to stay under their radar and align with China.

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Maybe but those are hypotheses. As Turkey unravels her neo Ottoman project we look for new alliances like with Israel and Egypt. We cannot trust the West entirely, nobody respects a vassal, a bankrupt one for that matter.

In the Netherlands they call it the best insurance policy money can buy.

>a bankrupt one for that matter.

Not much we can do there unfortunately, because the EU is something the USA supports simply so France and Germany don't drag us into a world war again. But at the same time, the Eurozone basically dooms Greece's, Italy's and Spain's economies to the pits.

I have quite a lot of Varoufakis' books on my backlog that I really need to get around to reading, but I think I'd agree with his conclusions prematurely.

>implying those shitholes don't doom us as well
The Netherlands really doesn't benefit from being in a union with shitholes.
They want to print their debts away, but that will go at the expense of Dutch pension savings.

I would like to see Turkey kicked out considering the shit Erdogan pulls off at the moment
Also it might be better to have a European defense pact without the US, because I believe the geostrategic interests of European countries align far more amongst each other than they do with the US (However the US is by far the most powerful NATO member and we obviously shouldn't challenge them militarily)

Right, but the key advantage of being a shithole is that the cost of labor is low. The problem with Greece (and others) is that they're pegged to the Euro, which means Germany benefits from having an industrial base while the "cheap" labor of Greece/Italy/etc. can't be utilized because the currency is strong.

This is why you see China desperately trying to deflate its currency, otherwise its companies would try to find labor in Bangladesh and other "shithole" places. No doubt Greece benefits in a lot of ways from the Eurozone, but it comes down to politics. If it were free of those politics, they'd just deflate their currency and steal away a lot of German industry.

Again I'm not making moral judgements here, just saying what would happen. I agree with the general USA stance that the EU is a good thing, because it keeps us out of global war. But that doesn't mean it can't be improved.

Great. Stop opposing obor or let's break the union apart.
You don't want to keep losing money right?

I'm not against an European Union either. But the current one is just fucked from the get go. A single monutary union doesn't work and causes conflict. The fact that you can only vote for local politicians in the European parliament causes politicians to only consider their own national interests. And the fact that all powers lie in the unelected European Commission means nobody knows or cares about who runs the union. It's just set up for failure by design.

>I would like to see Turkey kicked out considering the shit Erdogan pulls off at the moment
Agreed but like says, Turkey probably has us by the balls

so the question is how we can decouple ourselves from Turkey in the long-term while still remaining effective as a deterrent. Fuck being an offensive force, deterrence is all that matters IMO

*monetary

Well, we literally suggested creating a mini-union with only Germanic countries in 2015. But Merkel said no.

>we literally suggested creating a mini-union with only Germanic countries in 2015. But Merkel said no.
Do you have any articles about this? I would like to read it

It was actually for the refugee crisis. But our politicians also fear a "transfer union" where money is being transfered from north to south.

irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/dutch-pm-proposes-mini-schengen-amid-calls-for-new-fortress-europe-1.2446480

>implying Russia isn't ruled by Jewish oligarghs

Thanks for the spot. I feel ashamed that this slipped by me

that being said I currently work as a video game programmer after spending 4 years at university studying international politics, so I have no impetus or responsibility now :/

It's the only reasonable solution. Germans are leeching off us with their devalued euro.

How do Greek politicians feel about "two-speed" Eurozone?

so after reading the article I've come to the conclusion that the Schengen perhaps was a mistake without also simultaneously enacting a common military force within the EU, or at least aligning NATO objectives with EU objectives.

It would be nonsense to allow free movement when there's not a military force at the borders of all EU states, making sure that all entries are legitimate, since all Schengen states are at risk.

Is this correct or a misreading?

They spout the muh euro solidarity and there cannot be a unified Europe with a two speed plan and crap like that.
communist and some far right fringe parties call for the dissolution of the EU

Well, it doesn't have to be a military force. But if the EU is all about common borders, then it has to enforce those borders. And if the EU is all about a common market, then they have to enforce those common markets (France for example often blocks takeovers from other countries), and if the EU wants a common monetary union then it has to enforce the 3% budget spending norm. But the EU does none of this. If the EU has the copenhagen criteria for who can join, then they shouldn't let countries in who don't meet those criteria. And so on.

>(France for example often blocks takeovers from other countries),
Believe me there isn't a country on this planet that hates France's terroir laws more than the USA. It's a version of protectionism that very few criticize

I live in Chicago and if another country were to claim they were making deep dish pizza, I wouldn't give a shit, as there's at least a small chance they might improve the recipe and I might get to eat it one day. But France? France doesn't get that at all. They want to protect their market until it fades into irrelevancy

The French were highly innovative people during the 19th century in chemistry, science, cuisine, etc -- they don't need protectionism. They are very intelligent people.

The EU tries to please everyone and at the same time fails everyone.

All Europe should say goodbye to NATO to create our own intergovernmental military alliance between European nations.

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This is also why 11 of our 13 parties are skeptical of "more EU".
And 2 of the skeptical parties want to leave outright.
Because the EU can't even handle their current responsibilities.

After the Brexit for example our government wants the EU to decrease their budget, with the amount the British brought in. But the EU wants to expand its budget and let us pay for it.

I'm ok with it so long as you pay for it. Pic related is sensational, but you get the point -- the USA spending 4% and Europe spending ~1% feels very unfair. We spend that great amount of money on force projection, but if we were to ignore the Atlantic and focus on the Pacific that would help a lot.

However, the controller of the EU (Germany) has citizens who are very anti-military for obvious reasons. So the question is, can you convince them to raise money to create a replacement to NATO? Otherwise you'd be stuck with NATO.

Again, I don't care which way this pans out, but like a lot of Americans I don't think we need to fund Europe's defense when the USSR is dead and our European allies refuse to pay 2% GDP.

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That's already happening. Because the British didn't want an European military and the French didn't want to rule, but not share, the Belgian navy is being integrated into the Dutch navy. And the Dutch army is being integrated into the German army. And the Czech army might also get integrated into the German army.

There is also a spendings program in NATO where countries can opt-in into specific specialisms. So if you want to do a common investment in tanks or airplanes, then x amount of countries will do that together. And each country has to participate in a certain amount of shared spending programs I believe.

google translate will not work with hungarian properly
jetfly.hu/mh-59.-kecskemet/bemutattak-a-magyar-honvedseg-airbus-a319-es-repulogepeit

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The combined armies also participate in larger batlegroups. For example our navy falls under the British battlegroup. Togheter with the Danes, Norwegians and so on.

Since NATO is nothing but Amerifat imperialism created for the dark Amerifat interests you should pay the 100% of the expense.

refer to please
If you want to complain, France and Britain are better targets. We were recruited by them to maintain the peace

Pls accept

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France rejected your NATO application bro. We accepted you.
This happened in like 2012 if I remember correctly.

Nobody forces you to station tens of thousands of troops in Europe, have bases all around the globe and meddle in virtually every armed conflict anywhere
If you feel you pay too much, simply spend less, don't expect others to take over your warmongering role

Now it doin dirty magyars.

iirc countries can only join NAto if there are no territorial disputes on its soil, otherwise Nato would directly get pulled into a conflict
so ukraine can't join for now

NATO is voluntary unlike Warsaw pact. If you want to leave, please do, that means we can retract our efforts from your territory and close down the bases that sustain a lot of German towns.
But yes, you are correct that GDP%->Military ratio is not entirely beneficial to NATO. The USA of course has two oceans to worry about, but in modern history the Atlantic is incredibly peaceful but the Pacific sees Chinese stealing Philippine/Vietnamese/Etc. territory away via artificial islands. If Germany would actually foot the bill to pay for a European army, that would be swell, because that would mean we could focus on the Pacific. But with Russia invading George and Ukraine... you do jack shit. No offense, but Merkel is a retard for focusing on refugees and not Russians. I hope further German leadership understands the true threat.

The USA created a great problem in China with President Nixon, and we really need to fix it. It's a country that rips off all others' intellectual properties, including the USA, UK, Germany, and any other highly advanced industrial economy. It would be nice not to worry about Russia at this moment for that reason

t. Hillary Clinton

Putin is an asshole, but he's not retarded enough to attack NATO, even if the US would completely retreat from Europe
Even the European countries alone would be able to contain Russia, simply look at the economic power (and also the current standing army)

There's no need for spending the crazy amount of money the US spends, and we can handle our defense alone. If the US wants Germany to defend itself, simply pull back your troops from here, then we're forced to invest more if we're truly that much at risk
but you won't, because the bases here serve your geostrategic interest, they aren't some kind of charity

No offense though

Greece ant Turkey had conflict at Cyprus in 70's. But it didn't stop them to exit or join when they wanted.

>Even the European countries alone would be able to contain Russia, simply look at the economic power (and also the current standing army)
You can't convert brooms to guns bro, the Russians know this. And I don't want to see Germany invaded by Russia again. In WW2 we had tea over Christmas, whereas Russians raped your women in Berlin. The USA has always been light-handed toward Germany for various reasons, even angering our best allies France and the UK, but they don't understand why we do it

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We NEED to build nukes please plox.

>Germany invaded by Russia again
Wait, what?

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Unironically the best thing to ever happen to us. For some reason Russians are extremely butthurt that they don't get to come here and shit all over everything.

Nice memes you got there, but my point still stands
Russia won't attack NATO, not even the EU

So it was Russia who invade Germany, not the opposite, right?

>Russia won't attack NATO, not even the EU
So stop opposing Ukraine's entry into the EU? It should be safe, obviously

You're right, even though Molotov-Ribbentrop was signed, it was Germany that broke it

Pointless cold war era shit that nobody wants to be a part of due to hating the US and wanting to bend over for China. Everyone would much rather just buy Chinese equipment and tell the US to fuck off anyways.

Very good tool for American imperialism over eurocucks.

>dirty
guess who is not joining NATO ever :D

It's up for the EU countries to decide who joins and who not, no business of the US. And they weren't in the EU when Russia invaded them, so this is a pointless argument
Also you seem to know little about history, the Christmas truce happened in WW1 with British soldiers, not in WW2 with Americans...

Have you tried becoming a first world country? It's nice. All you gotta do is take Russian dick out of your mouth.

Serbs?

>Also you seem to know little about history, the Christmas truce happened in WW1 with British soldiers, not in WW2 with Americans...
It happened both times
owlcation.com/humanities/About-World-War-2-A-Small-Christmas-Truce

>So stop opposing Ukraine's entry into the EU?
Who does?

That's one incident with a handful of soldiers, not comparable at all to what happened in WW1

id better rot here than have this in my country

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Its most important role is psychological, to strip away the idea of defending yourself from a nation's mind.

Nato also is a fundamental tool in importing refugees (23 year old fit men) to Europe.

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