Did you know Panama is the richest country in Latin America?

That's Brazil

so why was your GDP per capita relatively higher as compared to American GDP?

Everyone else was even worse due to all the dictatorships
Everyone else eventually got better while we got stuck

But 70s-80s Mexico was marked by disastrous economic depressions. We got hit again in the mid 90s to a lesser degree, and then in 2008 with the global depression.

it's interesting that most of Latin American countries started to improve only in the 1990s after the Soviet Union collapsed, you could think the SU shouldn't have had much influence on Latin America but on the other hand you can see most of Latin American countries were actually socialist dictatorships to some extent during the 70s and 80s.

I can't understand why the US tolerated so many left-leaning countries around and first of all, why the citizens accepted these socialist dictatorships if they didn't have to be afraid of a soviet military intervention

I don't speak burrito, what does the text say?

Can you translate this to American?

This happened in the 90s
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_peso_crisis

>most of Latin American countries were actually socialist dictatorships to some extent during the 70s and 80s.

I'm pretty sure that aside from Nicaragua, the rest of Central America was pretty right wing. They still are, which is why they still are so unequal despite being so poor

kek

Attached: Trump Panamá.jpg (1280x720, 132K)

GDP (PPP) per capita

>I'm pretty sure that aside from Nicaragua, the rest of Central America was pretty right wing.

I'm reading about the Mexican economy in the 1980s and it's pretty much the same like I was reading about any Eastern European commie country back then - highly regulated economy with gigantic, state-owned industries, extremely high debt due to borrowing money from foreign banks, devaluation of national currency

only in 1989 you started to denationalize your industry and privatize the biggest firms when de Gontari announced his development plan, exactly the same year it happened in eastern Europe

it's like your 80s governments were influenced by the USSR and its ideology

>>I'm pretty sure that aside from Nicaragua, the rest of Central America was pretty right wing.
What part of that post did you not understand?

Guatemala, El Salvador, Honduras

this happened in 82

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miguel_de_la_Madrid#Domestic_policy

Actually we were the only country to have a left wing revolution in the 20th century that wasn't influenced by the Soviets, ours was 1910 vs 1917 for them plus our unspoken deal with the Americans always was not to allow them to meddle in our politics

That aside yes, there are similarities, we still have something very similar to agrarian soviets

I'm sorry, but having read about the Mexican economy in the 1980s I can't call it "right-wing" at all.

It was literally the same kind of socialist management like in any eastern European country.

>en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miguel_de_la_Madrid#Domestic_policy

>Unlike previous Mexican leaders, he was a market-oriented president

So it's actually a proof Mexico was usually left-leaning and this guy was an exception.

>During his presidency, De la Madrid introduced neoliberal economic reforms that encouraged foreign investment, widespread privatization of state-run industries, and reduction of tariffs, a process that continued under his successors, and which immediately caught the attention of the International Monetary Fund (IMF) and other international observers. In January 1986, Mexico entered the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade (GATT) following its efforts at reforming and decentralising its economy. The number of state-owned industries went down from approximately 1,155 in 1982 to 412 in 1988.

So before him Mexico was just like any other commie country in eastern Europe.

Seems like socialism was a widespread ideology even without Soviet support, India, Egypt, Brazil and many other countries had periods of socialist governments that applied soviet-style economic policies.

>Mexican economy in the 1980s I can't call it "right-wing" at all.
I wasn't talking about Mexico ffs

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_America#/media/File:Central_America_(orthographic_projection).svg

Attached: 800px-Central_America_(orthographic_projection).svg.png (800x800, 175K)

Old right wing here was pretty protectionist

>So it's actually a proof Mexico was usually left-leaning and this guy was an exception.
>So before him Mexico was just like any other commie country in eastern Europe.
yes, but mexico was doing fine until the 60s

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_miracle

wasn't Pinochet an economic liberal?

everything below Rio Grande down to Tierra del Fuego is Latin America to me, so let's not argue over such petty issues and definitions.

>yes, but mexico was doing fine until the 60s

so were most of commie countries, including the USSR, the 50s/60s are widely regarded as the best period in history of the Soviet Union

Point is, CENTRAL AMERICA, aside from Nicaragua, wasn't ruled by communists

Attached: Central_America.png (1024x1024, 245K)

As someone else already told you, our socialist didn't have a lot to do with the USSR.

>wasn't Pinochet an economic liberal?
Yes, but only after he received the El Ladrillo report. (mid 70's)

ok, maybe CENTRAL AMERICA was not, but I was talking mostly about Mexico, plus many relevant South American countries were socialist for at least some decades

anyway, Latin America seems like floating between extremes, you change hardcore right-wing governments to almost communist ones and then right-wing again, often within one decade and you always end up with a severe economic crisis, political repressions and general hardships, sometimes even genocides.

>our socialist didn't have a lot to do with the USSR

maybe, but still it's interesting you had a socialist period when the USSR had its heyday and you had a crisis of socialism and shift to neoliberalism only when the Soviet Bloc started to crumble.

hard to believe your socialists weren't supported by the USSR

especially, that Mexico was granted a status of an observer in Comecon in 1975

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comecon

so you must have tried to get closer to the USSR

since when is the GDP measured in percent?

it's % of American GDP per capita

>hard to believe your socialists weren't supported by the USSR
They weren't. The USSR had some spies in Mexico City, but the CIA was monitoring them all the time. Some of our presidents during that time were CIA informants, according to declassified documents.

They also weren't happy about this

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leon_Trotsky

>you change hardcore right-wing governments to almost communist ones and then right-wing again, often within one decade and you always end up with a severe economic crisis, political repressions and general hardships, sometimes even genocides.
That doesn't apply to Mexico tho

>so you must have tried to get closer to the USSR
It wasn't so much that but more that we were "neutral" during the cold war, the only country that we ever were close to in any way was Tito's Yugoslavia which is probably the reason we remained low key supportive of the Serbs through the 1990's

I'm not saying you're wrong btw. I do think there are certainly similarities in between the models for Mexico and Eastern Europe in the 20th century, we did very well under import substitution untile the americans picked a fight with OPEC in the 1970's and there were certainly strong elements of authoritarism in our state

That said Mexico's history is very different from the rest of Latin America, we had a one party system which is the reason we didn't go through the shit show of petty dictators, coups and juntas than everyone else did. The only other exception is Costa Rica.

>we had a one party system

that's actually another thing that makes your system resemble the eastern european one

i'm just surprised how many similarities there were between the eastern european socialist system and the system in Mexico (and maybe some other countries in Latin America) and it's hard to believe it was just original Mexican idea to "catch up" with the Soviet Union, I guess Mexico must have gained at least little support from Moscow, hard to believe Washington would tolerate a highly protectionist, almost socialist economy and an authoritarian regime so close to the American border, if not Soviet support

i think it's not coincidence the economic system of Mexico started to change only when the USSR was about to collapse and couldn't support Mexican socialism anymore

>Some of our presidents during that time were CIA informants
Not really, they may have "cooperated" but calling them informants is going too far, the one that was most involved with the CIA was Echeverria (1968) and he was still out having fun with Castro and expropiating land for ejidos while having delusions about being one of the leaders of the global left.

De la Madrid and Salinas were mostly pragmatic technocrats, neither allowed the Americans the free run Fox and Calderón later did and while the soviet Union lasted Mexico made sure to mantain friendly relations.

As for the spies neither the KGB nor the CIA were operating openly in Mexico City, we ignored both and remained neutral. Watch the Falcon and the Snowman, it's a moviue about irl spies, when caught in Mexico one of them is given the choice to be deported to his choice of the US or the USSR (he was fucked either way) it was kind of how it worked. Can't remember the name of the book but Julio Scherer also wrote on the subject.

Attached: Echeverria y Castro.jpg (180x280, 11K)

>hard to believe Washington would tolerate a highly protectionist, almost socialist economy and an authoritarian regime so close to the American border, if not Soviet support
Washington tolerated everything if you didn't touch their industries and you remained loyal to them

You got it wrong, the Soviet system was partly based in Mexico's, as hard as that may be to believe, we had land reform and "institutionalized" revolution while the Soviets were still under Stalin's thumb, it wasn't technical just inspiration, there's a reason Vargas Llosa called us the perfect dictatorship. So no it wasn't a coincidence there were so many similarities.

I know it seems strange but there was a lot of prestige for the Mexican revolution amongst socialists/leftists in the first half of the 20th century because of how iconic Mexican revolutionaries became (anyone who was anti-American at that time loved Pancho Villa) and the muralista art movement, our one party system pre-dates WWII

nytimes.com/2017/10/25/opinion/mexico-soviet-russian-revolution.html

Our 1917 constitution was somewhat influential, including with the Russians

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Mexico

Echeverría and Díaz Ordaz were weird motherfuckers, with Díaz mainly being a paranoid prick. So I'm well aware that Echeverría thought of himself as a true socialist, but the documents show they cooperated with the CIA on more than one occasion.

Some people go even further with accusations

aristeguinoticias.com/2907/kiosko/en-1968-el-presidente-era-un-agente-pagado-de-la-cia-afirma-sergio-aguayo/

>we ignored both and remained neutral
Ofc, but they were still present. Trotsky even got murdered by an NKVD agent.

>Washington tolerated everything if you didn't touch their industries and you remained loyal to them

But if Mexico had protectionist policies and didn't allow American capital to buy up their oil industry, America could get a bit butthurt, don't you think? Why did they invade Iraq and ousted the Libyan dictator after all?

I must read more about the Mexican revolution then as this topic seems completely unknown and uncovered over here, thanks

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_oil_expropriation

>The anniversary, March 18, is now a Mexican civic holiday.

lol, celebrating expropriation of private property is based af

>But if Mexico had protectionist policies and didn't allow American capital to buy up their oil industry, America could get a bit butthurt, don't you think? Why did they invade Iraq and ousted the Libyan dictator after all?
Check out all the auto parts and car factories that are installed in Mexico, a great number of them are actually american
>en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_oil_expropriation
>1938
La doctrina de seguridad nacional y la escuela de las americas aun no estaban desarrolladas para esa fecha.
De haber ocurrido en los 70 lo mas probable es que si hubiera habido otro tipo de intervencion mas dura en Mexico

Mexico was playing neutral 4th dimensional chess during the cold war, and we went directly against both USA and USSR intentions many times

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuba–Mexico_relations#Cold_War_Relations_(1959–1991)

>Trotsky even got murdered by an NKVD agent
That's what I'm saying, both americans and soviets were chaisng each others' tails all over Mexico City, but the government stayed out of it if there wasn't any mess to clean up, that's why the Soviet embassy in Mexico was the base of operations for their spies, ofc the CIA knew but they could do nothing about it and in a way it was easier for them to try to keep an eye on them this way. Actual Russian spies in the US had to go deep undercover.

And yeah there's a lot of contradictions to Echeverría, I'm by no means defending him, but I doubt he had the best interest of the US at heart, he cooperated with them and then he could go to Eastern Europe and cooperate with them as well, I have a lot of respect for Sergio Aguayo but he's not exactly unbiased nor above grand sounding claims.

Mexico wasn't some far away country, americans were keenly aware after our revolution that unrest here could spill over to their side of their border, so they allowed us more freedom than many other countries to keep the peace. Their plan was to take control of us through economic dominance, which ironically they didn't do until the 90's when the cold war was over.

Was it much harder to emigrate to the US from Mexico like 40-50 years ago? Did many people do it? Americans behave like the Mexican immigration was quite a recent thing.

I'm just saying that our government wasn't that influenced by the USSR because, sometimes, even our presidents did things that went against them, like cooperating with the CIA.
We also weren't that influenced by the CIA, because, sometimes, our government cooperated with them, we also took many actions against USA's interest. Like nationalizing our oil, allowing the Cuban revolution being planned from here, and later maintaining relations with Cuba.

It was MUCH easier, but they usually went back and forth between both countries. Mexican migrants only started to stay permanently inside the US once moving between the borders became increasingly hard, despite Americans having an explicit demand for our workers, which is why Mexicans went there in the first place.

For centuries the US had explicit laws banning immigrants from many countries, specially China and Eastern European countries, plus even Italians and other Catholics, I believe, but they pretty much always made an exception with Mexicans, despite also treating Mexican immigrants like shit.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traquero
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bracero_program

They pretty much created the habit of Mexicans going to work in the US by themselves.

Eso lo se, de hecho ustedes mismos recibieron a varios exiliados de acá, pero a la larga, en el caso de ustedes, no había mucho riesgo que una revolución comunista derribara al gobierno y se enemistara con los EE.UU. Por lo demás la cercania con los gringos era otra salvaguarda más, cualquier revolución o hecho grave y enviaban de inmediato tropas para allá

TL;DR: the thread

Also

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_Reform_and_Control_Act_of_1986
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_Act_of_1990

you know Panama is a tax haven and their GDP is inflated as fuck, right?

>I can't understand why the US tolerated so many left-leaning countries around
they didn't

Attached: ilcinkhighressm.jpg (3300x1619, 2.62M)

Believe it or not, it's a very interesting thread

>most of Latin American countries were actually socialist dictatorships to some extent during the 70s and 80s.
imagine being this ignorant

are you this "socialism has never been tried" argie troll?

he's right tho, unless you are the hurr free healthcare = sosialism xdddd kind of guy

I'm one of the socialists that always post here, but I've literally never said that.

Based

También de Argentina y Guatemala. Y de España algunos años antes. De hecho, México fue uno de los pocos países que abiertamente "apoyó" (dentro de los poco que realmente podíamos hacer en la práctica) a los republicanos durante la guerra civil española.

El problema que tenía Estados Unidos con México es que, me imagino, no habría sido ni tan fácil ni tan buena idea desestabilizar un país directamente al lado de ellos y por eso nos dejaron salirnos con la nuestra en algunas cosas.

Attached: Spanish Civil War.png (321x1947, 271K)

They've got comfy beaches too
looks like a nice country, it's hard to believe his neighbours are shitholes like El Salvador and Honduras

Attached: Popular-Beach-in-Panama.jpg (580x384, 60K)

>I'm one of the socialists

no wonder Argentina has already hit rock bottom

Argentina is a capitalist country, what the fuck would me being a socialist have to do with how shit capitalism is?

also, are you gonna explain what you meant with "most of Latin American countries were actually socialist dictatorships to some extent during the 70s and 80s"?

are you that one retarded pole that doesn't know basic concepts like capitalism and socialism but still has a strong opinion on it?

so far you avoided one question and then you """insulted""" with absolutely no argument at all.

fun fact: recently, it's actually NOT a problem

washingtonpost.com/world/the_americas/study-finds-that-more-mexicans-are-leaving-the-us-than-coming/2015/11/19/aa37b5ce-8f0f-11e5-baf4-bdf37355da0c_story.html
washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/01/27/even-before-trump-more-mexicans-were-leaving-the-us-than-arriving/
politifact.com/wisconsin/statements/2017/apr/26/ron-kind/yes-experiencing-net-outflow-illegal-undocumented-/
usatoday.com/story/news/world/2015/11/19/mexicans-returning-home-migration-shift-united-states/76013230/
nytimes.com/2015/11/20/us/more-mexican-immigrants-leaving-us-than-entering-report-finds.html
news.stanford.edu/2018/05/14/analyzing-undocumented-mexican-migration-u-s-1970s/
dailycaller.com/2016/07/18/mexico-deports-9-out-of-10-illegal-central-american-migrants/
washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2016/09/20/obama-thanks-mexico-for-absorbing-central-american-refugees-his-own-administration-wants-to-turn-them-away/?utm_term=.76a71490c55a

Attached: minus 1.5 million mexicans.png (348x537, 34K)

>50% of my salary is robbed by the state
>capitalism
retards like you have made too much harm to this country, please shut up already

>this retarded strawman
see? you """people""" are fucking braindead.
what do taxes have to do with capitalism?
and when did I say that?
capitalism is the existence of private property rights, Argentina is literally a capitalist country.
if you don't know the most basic economical/political concepts you shouldn't have a strong opinion on it.

holy fuck you're retarded.

>no habría sido ni tan fácil ni tan buena idea desestabilizar un país directamente al lado de ellos
Por ahí va la cosa amigo.
>También de Argentina y Guatemala. Y de España algunos años antes. De hecho, México fue uno de los pocos países que abiertamente "apoyó" (dentro de los poco que realmente podíamos hacer en la práctica) a los republicanos durante la guerra civil española.
Eran otros tiempos amigo
En la ciudad de mis padres de hecho hay una escuela donada por Mexico luego de un terremoto, con unos murales muy bonitos

Attached: 1024px-Murales_de_la_Escuela_México_de_Chillán,_Siqueiros_detalle_cruz.jpg (1024x1365, 255K)

please kill yourself so that my country gets a little bit better.

maybe we could divide it, you (the lefty scum) get the north and create the shithole that want to live in and we (the smart, progress oriented people) get the rest
deal?

>doesn't know what capitalism is
>defends it
kill yourself, that alone would make my country better.

you're not a very smart guy huh? well... mental retardation is a basic requirement in order to become a lefty so yeah... please kill yourself first, I promise I will follow you later

>no arguments
>only insults
couldn't have expected any less from a retard that thinks capitalism is "when there's no taxes".
just die already.

Disappointing Argentina, that's not a white people score.

>capitalism is the existence of private property rights, Argentina is literally a capitalist country.

When a country isn't communist, it's capitalist... lol

when did I say that? are you retarded like the others?

Attached: 2462572836894705470.png (648x369, 27K)

que pasa zurdito? hace mucho que no la pones que andas malhumorado? jajajaj tremendo buliado el gordo virgen este

nunca un argumento, solamente insultos de subnormal.
es evidente que no tenés mas de 12 años.

>rather than by the state
Why the state need to tax half the citizens gains if it doesn't control the trades and industry?

I don't care, stop deflecting.
capitalism is private ownership of the means of production, that's it.

Yeah and i'm Bill Gates, lol.