What would happen if Barbarossa never happened and the planned Soviet invasion of Germany went through? Would we all be living in khrushchyovki today?
What would happen if Barbarossa never happened and the planned Soviet invasion of Germany went through...
Jackson Long
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Thomas Jones
Germany would not have allied with japan , WWII would be split between a European war isolated from a Pacific war. the US would be less economically pressured to enter war, leading to a more expansive Japanese empire. it would basically be Australia and the US allied against japan, and western Europe against Germany, spain and Italy included. the end result would be a western European coalition replacing the USSR but under constatutional feudalism and the American Pacific coalition consistant of far east asia, and former british colonies. china would be a thriving amercan copy cat with Chinese characteristics. Australia would turn the oreintal island chains into protectorates and later client states. japan would basically not change, Korea would encompass manchuria and basically be south South Korea. india would remain a British colony. Africa would bethe primebattle ground for a cold war.
Xavier Davis
Assuming stalin didn't go full retard and purge his experienced general officers in this scenario, germany would get rekt in the opening months before regrouping and stopping the soviet advance somewhere around where the iron curtain fell in our timeline. At that point it becomes a war of attrition. Germany stands a chance if it builds up some reserves and throws everything into an all or nothing offensive at a weak point in the soviet lines. If they try to fight across the whole front they will run out of men and materiel before the soviets and continental europe becomes a communist stronghold.
Camden Turner
Soviet Union would span from Japan to Portugal
Tyler Rodriguez
Germany allied with Japan prior to Barbarossa...
Elijah Wood
depends on if america invades. if not id say the germans have a chance at fighting off the soviet invasion and defending themselves from bong bombing raids with airfields in france.
Bentley Nguyen
Hitler never has the idea to go to war with the USSR so Barbarossa is off the table. The entire might of the Wehrmacht in 1940-41 is aimed at Britain, but it cannot invade. The Kriegsmarine's surface fleet is in shambles since Norway, the Luftwaffe has lost the Battle of Britain, there's a bunch of German soldiers sitting in Europe and very little. Sealion is not happening.
If Stalin decides to attack the Germans in 1941, when historically Barbarossa took place, then the end result is close to what actually happened but in reverse. The Soviets make rapid advances against the Germans and then they get bogged down. The Soviets are not receiving Lend-Lease support and so they are not as mobile.
Eventually America enters the war against Germany. The fighting in North Africa is the same. The US and UK open a second front in Normandy as they did. Maybe the Western Allies are the one to take Berlin but the end result is still a Cold War between the West and the USSR.
If Stalin waits to attack the Germans until he feels he's ready then the situation could be different. A built up, organized, and mobile Red Army could potentially knock the Germans out and keep pushing West if they wanted to. But that time-frame is ambiguous because I don't know of any concrete plans or date where Stalin would have felt ready to attack. He would also possibly be attacking a more prepared Germany. But if the Western Allies go the same and by 1944 are on the continent (and Stalin hasn't already won) then the end result is still the West and the USSR meeting mid-Europe and having a standoff.
Logan Fisher
If Germany is fighting a defensive war their logistics would not be nearly as strained. They would, if anything, fight a defensive war better. If shot kicked off in 1942 and the USSR invades Poland and Finland, Germany would be able to use both as a buffer to bog down the Red Army. Stalingrad happens in Warsaw. Without oil and the lend-lease program they won't win though.
Brayden Roberts
what a retarded post
what a retarded thread
Alexander Bailey
He's right though.
Kevin Wood
>planned Soviet invasion of Germany went through
That was not a thing. Stalin was floored that war with Germany happened. He was far more focused on building up the USSR from within, not expanding territory.
Robert Morgan
>build up army with more armored vehicles and weapons than any other nation in the world
>floored that war happened
Sebastian Smith
Yes he was worried he was going to be shot for several days after the invasion.The archives don't support it either. Stalin also authorized millions of gallons of oil to Germany not long before Barbarossa. Stalin had no plan to invade.
Noah James
>invades Finland
>forces the baltic states to capitulate
>takes half of Poland after the germans invade
>He was far more focused on building up the USSR from within, not expanding territory.
You cannot be this fucking stupid.
Brayden Gray
>the archives
Noah King
Germans were never particularly good at defense, most of their successful defensive tactics were counteroffensive used to halt an attack by throwing it off balance. There’s much less room for that kind of maneuver warfare in Poland and Germany than there was in Russia plus Russian troops and leadership may be more competent and far more concentrated than they were spread out across the whole eastern front. The actual timeline of ww2 showed that Germans generally were fucked when they got mixed in without room to maneuver.
Charles Reed
The archives had so many things that were damaging to Stalin, Lenin, and everyone since then.
Daniel Garcia
Minister Molotov made it very clear to Hitler that the Soviets intent was to rule all of Europe. There's a reason he attacked the USSR, just fucking horrible timing. But a war on two fronts couldn't have been avoided at that point unless he conceded to Poland and let them keep the supposed rightful German clay he wanted to annex. Their refusal and threats of invasion are what sparked the blitzkrieg, whether or not that's justified. Here's Hitler talking to a reporter about what Molotov told him during the talks, and why he invaded the USSR.
Also want to point out that the US saved Western Europe from Soviet occupation and thus the permanent altering of their societies. The iron curtain was a wall of protection since the Soviets didn't want war with the US at that time. But Communism was explicitly a globalist ideology, which believed it was saving the people it conquered from oppression. Everywhere a Marxist rebellion popped up, the Soviets would support and fully fund it. Even in Germany (German Revolution of 1918) in which a lot of the German Communist party members were Jews. They were generalized unfortunately, but they were not random scapegoats. A good chunk of German Jews actively worked to topple Germany and establish a Marxist government.
Andrew Jenkins
Soviets only invaded Poland once it became apparent that it would be entirely conquered by Germany otherwise.
If that happened, Hitler would get too close to Western region of Russia, allowing for swift and unhindered advance once the war with USSR starts.
Nazis were barely stopped as it is; if they started at former Polish border, they would have crushed the Soviets.
It was not a nice decision, but it was a necessary one.
Stalin's hand was forced here.
Aaron Lee
>Stalin's hand was forced here
Now try to defend the commies continuing to invade other countries Germany hadn't touched, and holding then for decades after Germany was conquered. I want to laugh some more.
Not being a naziboo, they did the same shit. Invading countries for no real reason other than to expand their soil or ideology. No side was right in this war except glorious 'merica.
Thomas Anderson
That happened afterwards though.
Austin Barnes
the German Economy would collapse within 2-3 years. The Germany economy at the time was only running through pillage. Stealing whatever wasn't nailed down and using it to fuel the economy only works for a short period of time after all
Japan was going to attack pearl no matter what germany did, as they were running what was essentially a totally seperate war. If hitler still declared war on america it was lights out anyways, if he didn't, economic collapse would fuck up the nazi state until either america or the soviets decided to finish them off
Lincoln James
>Also want to point out that the US saved Western Europe from Soviet occupation and thus the permanent altering of their societies.
Yeah, and the US occupation didn't alter those societies? The ideological change in West Germany was much more profound than in East Germany, and clearly it has stood the test of time much better.
>The iron curtain was a wall of protection since the Soviets didn't want war with the US at that time.
Stalin was using every trick in his book to defeat the USA/Israel/Britain in Europe and in China. He got poisoned by the Jews for it.
>But Communism was explicitly a globalist ideology, which believed it was saving the people it conquered from oppression.
Yeah, and Liberalism isn't any different.
>Everywhere a Marxist rebellion popped up, the Soviets would support and fully fund it. Even in Germany (German Revolution of 1918) in which a lot of the German Communist party members were Jews. They were generalized unfortunately, but they were not random scapegoats. A good chunk of German Jews actively worked to topple Germany and establish a Marxist government.
You're absolutely right, but consider why the USSR went FULL anti-Zionist in the 1950s onwards despite supporting the foundation of Israel in 1948, both politically with recognition and with direct military aide.
Israel still exists: the USSR doesn't. The USA still exists: the USSR doesn't. What does that tell you about where the Jews ultimately went?
Ethan Price
USSR had every reason to establish buffer states given how they where imvaded by every world power during the civil war and still risked getting toppled by said world powers on afterwards. The USSR even previously supported collaboration with France and England to contain Nazi germany until it became apparent theyd do nothing but only appease Hitler and grant him more power.
Kayden Cruz
Communism isnt globalist communists explicity say globalism is a form of capitalist exploitation and neocolonialosm. Its antinationalist but sees globalism just as much a threat to worker exploitation.
Austin Flores
Imperialist, whatever. There are a lot of isms so I'll spell it out for you, like the Communist Manifesto spells out. They saw communism as an ideology that would expand throughout the globe.
Nathaniel Russell
>planned Soviet invasion of Germany
There was no such thing. Stalin was so shocked when Hitler broke Molotov-Ribentrov that he held up in his house moping around for several days.
Luke Sanders
Modern globalism is explicitly capitalism. Communism is an international movement but doesnt support a large amount of globalist policies. Two conflate the two as the same is like saying an apple is an orange.
Liam Hill
There was no such thing.
Stalin toying with the idea does not equal actual invasion plans.
Lincoln Myers
>this thread
Why europan and american education is so fucked up? Stalin had no plans to invade Germany, if he had he wouldn't have supplied them with oil. Soviet military buildup was just a response to german.
Nicholas Davis
There probably was no planned invasion. Stalin was very cautious, scared of Germany, and only attacked small weak countries.
Jayden Lopez
Wasn't one of the main reasons the soviets were pushed back so quickly because they only had maps of German territory? Sounds like they were getting ready to invade to me.
Easton Torres
>criticizes others for their lack of proper education
>manages to type: "Why europan and american education is so fucked up?"
Hunter Phillips
>Communism is an international movement but doesnt support a large amount of globalist policies.
Isn't one of the main tennants of lenninism to creat a world socialist worker's republic?
Dominic Robinson
But in 1939/40 USSR invaded every and each state buffering the USSR from Germany. I guess Soviet reasoning changed somehow.
Owen King
>Q: with whom borders the Soviet Union?
>A: with whomever it fucking wants.
Brayden Morris
"Colonel Dr. Pavel N. Bobylev was one of the military historians from the Soviet (later Russian) Ministry of Defense who in 1993 published the materials of the January 1941 games-on-maps. More than 60 top Soviet officers for about ten days in January rehearsed the possible scenarios of the beginning of the war with Germany and its allies. These materials show that no battles were played out on the Soviet soil. The action started only when the Soviets ("Easterners") attacked westward from their border, and in the second game("South variant")- even from the positions deep inside the enemy's land."
"Mark Solonin notes that several variants of a war plan against Germany had existed at least since August 1940. He argues that in the Russian archives there are five versions of the general plan for the strategic deployment of the Red Army and ten documents reflecting the development of plans for operational deployment of western military districts. The differences between them were slight, all documents (including operational maps signed by the Deputy Chief of General Staff of the Red Army) are the plans for the invasion with depth offensive 300 km. Solonin also states that no other plans for Red Army deployment in 1941 have been found so far, and that the concentration of Red Army units in Western parts of USSR was done in direct accordance with the May "Considerations on plan for strategic deployment":"
Caleb Turner
"One of Suvorov's pieces of evidence favoring the theory of an impending Soviet attack was his claim regarding the maps and phrasebooks issued to Soviet troops. Military topographic maps, unlike other military supplies, are strictly local and cannot be used elsewhere than in the intended operational area. Suvorov claims Soviet units were issued with maps of Germany and German-occupied territory, and phrasebooks including questions about SA offices—SA offices were found only in German territory proper. In contrast, maps of Soviet territory were scarce. Notably, after the German attack, the officer responsible for maps, Lieutenant General M.K. Kudryavtsev, was not punished by Stalin, who was known for extreme punishments after failures to obey his orders. According to Suvorov, this demonstrates that Kudryavtsev was obeying the orders of Stalin, who simply did not expect a German attack."
Asher Rodriguez
>Stalin had no plans to invade
The soviets were good boys. Attacking Poland in 1919 was just a practical joke. Messing around the Romanian border in the 20s with non regular troops and even engaging in skirmishes with them was also a joke.
Brody Fisher
Nah, would be proudly arayan bro.
Dominic Edwards
>Attacking Poland in 1919
Uhmm it was Poland who attacked
Carson Brooks
Go back to bed Robert.
Evan Smith
We’d all be tranny
Noah Murphy
There's a difference between an invasion plan and planning to invade. E.g. the America's war plan red. As for why the Soviets may not have drawn a defensive plan, they probably thought they had the upper hand upon a declaration of war. Surprise wars weren't exactly that common at that point.
Christopher Hernandez
Plus, having some sort of troop concentration on the western border even before the German invasion just makes sense. Where are they going to put it? Central Asia? By the Finns? Or along the border from which they were buttfucked on multiple occasions already?